by Justin
Death: The Nonbelievers' Nightmare
24
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Your video promotes fear death as a reason to unquestionably follow the writings in book.
Fear of the current life ending, is not proof of God, or that those dying have suddenly realised they were wrong, just that they are aware that there is nothing more, and are sad that that is the case. “Darkness awaits” does not necessarily mean, as you seem to be suggesting, “oh I wish I had believed in god, so that this isn’t the end”, it’s just typical humanity; even the faithful would not choose to leave their loved ones!
Check this, from the Times 20/04/08 -
LINK REMOVED
PEACE
Crispy
It does not say to trust the Bible out of fear. It lets us know that death is coming so seek the truth beforehand. At least that is my take.
Why should I fear death?
If I am, death is not.
If death is, I am not.
Why should I fear that which cannot exist so long as I do?
1 Corinthians 15:55 says “Where, O death, is your victory? Where, O death, is your sting?”
To the Christian, there is no fear of death necessary.
I’m not arguing that.
I’m saying that atheists don’t have to fear death either. We won’t be there when it happens, so what’s there to fear? Better to spend our time loving life than fearing death.
U.C., you will be dead a lot longer than you will be alive. The Christian has hope for the afterlife. The atheist and nonbeliever have Hell. Repent and trust the Savior for hope.
Hell?
There is no hell after death, nor is there heaven. There is only the embrace of oblivion, which is nothing to be feared for within that embrace you will no longer be.
Why should I fear that which cannot exist so long as I do?
U.C.: Where do you get your information? How do you know what you believe to be true?
Our personalities and subjective experiences are clearly tightly bound to our bodies.
When someone dies, they stop moving, speaking and thinking and after a while their bodies begin to decompose.
It sure seems like death is the end of personality to me.
Disbelieving in something for which there is not a shred of rational evidence is the very foundation of rational thought.
Don’t try and tar me with the ‘but you’re just a believer too’ brush. My beliefs are as objectively true as I can humanly make them, and they’re all the more wonderful for it.
There is not a shred of rational evidence that there is nothing after death. You have just chosen to believe that. I get my information from the Word of God. Creation proves the Creator. Your conscience proves you are guilty. The Bible is proved by supernatural prophecy and complete accuracy.
Creation proves itself. It doesn’t prove a Creator. A belief in the Creator is a matter of faith, not rationality. That’s kind of the point of calling it ‘faith’ in the first place, is it not?
There is no evidence of anything after death. This is precisely what to expect if there wasn’t anything to be found. Thus, it’s rational to belive this.
It’s irrational to believe in an entity for which there is no neccesity. There is nothing to suggest life after death. Nothing.
You have faith to the contrary, as is your right. But that doesn’t change the fact that your faith is irrational. That’s what makes it faith in the first place.
However, we’re getting off topic.
The original point of your blog post was that death is a nightmare for nonbelievers. My point is that, if you don’t believe in heaven or hell or life after death, then there’s no nightmare to be had. So the most potent cure for the fear of death is disbelief in God.
Death is the end of life. That’s all. You won’t be there to be bothered by it. Why choose the irrationality of believing anything else to the contrary?
If faith gives you respite from the fear of death, then it is only selling you the cure for a malady of its own malady.
Cut out the middle man, I say.
*cure for a malady of it’s own making.
You said “Creation proves itself. It doesn’t prove a Creator. A belief in the Creator is a matter of faith, not rationality. That’s kind of the point of calling it ‘faith’ in the first place, is it not?”
Not true. If I pointed to a building, you would not need faith to believe in a builder. All that you would need are eyes that can see and a brain that works. If you want the builder to build you a building, however, then you will need to trust him (have faith). You do not need faith to believe in the Creator of the creation. It is self-evident. To say there was no Creator who created the creation is to move into an intellectual free zone. However, if you want that Creator to save you, then you must have faith in that Creator.
You said “There is no evidence of anything after death. This is precisely what to expect if there wasn’t anything to be found. Thus, it’s rational to belive this.”
U.E., have you obtained all knowledge? Of course not! In fact, you will likely agree that you know much less than half of all knowledge. Is it then possible that there is adequate evidence in the other half of knowledge you do not have? If you were honest, you would say no. You cannot prove your statement. The only reliable source of the information would be the Creator, and he has told us in the Bible.
You said “The original point of your blog post was that death is a nightmare for nonbelievers. My point is that, if you don’t believe in heaven or hell or life after death, then there’s no nightmare to be had. So the most potent cure for the fear of death is disbelief in God.”
Too bad that is impossible. See Romans 1:20. You know there is a Creator who created the creation and are suppressing that fact.
If you pointed at a building, I would not need to have faith that it was built by a human builder because I can go to a construction yard at any time and see how buildings get built.
If you pointed at a species, I would not need to have faith it arose due to evolution because I can just Google the phrase ‘Observed Instances of Speciation’ at any time and see how evolution makes new species’.
If you pointed at the universe as a whole, however… That’s a bit more tricky. I can’t just walk anywhere and see how universes come into existence. It’s not something we can objectively assess.
This leaves the knowledge we do have, and reason.
I’m going to copy and paste something I posted in another thread. It applies here. I may need to make this an actual post on my blog so I can link to it whenever I need to do so:
To one who examines the evidence, there can be no doubt that God exists. Every building has a builder. Everything made has a maker. The fact of the existence of the Creator is axiomatic (self-evident). That’s why the Bible says, “The fool has said in his heart, ‘There is no God’” (Psalm 14:1). The professing atheist denies the common sense given to him by God, and defends his belief by thinking that the question “Who made God?” can’t be answered. This, he thinks, gives him license to deny the existence of God.
The question of who made God can be answered by simply looking at space and asking, “Does space have an end?” Obviously, it doesn’t. If there is a brick wall with “The End” written on it, the question arises, “What is behind the brick wall?” Strain the mind though it may, we have to believe (have faith) that space has no beginning and no end. The same applies with God. He has no beginning and no end. He is eternal.
The Bible also informs us that time is a dimension that God created, into which man was subjected. It even tells us that one day time will no longer exist. That will be called “eternity.” God Himself dwells outside of the dimension He created (2 Timothy 1:9, Titus 1:2). He dwells in eternity and is not subject to time. God spoke history before it came into being. He can move through time as a man flips through a history book.
Because we live in the dimension of time, logic and reason demand that everything must have a beginning and an end. We can understand the concept of God’s eternal nature the same way we understand the concept of space having no beginning and end—by faith. We simply have to believe they are so, even though such thoughts put a strain on our distinctly insufficient cerebrums.
source:WOTM
Now you’re just being silly.
You said:
What evidence? Show me this evidence! Because I’ve been looking at exactly the same evidence as you up until now, and I’m convinced somewhat to the contrary.
Already dealt with this. We know buildings have builders because we can see them being built by construction workers. We know that maunfactured goods were created by people because we can go to a factory line and see them being manufactured.
This doesn’t apply to the universe, because we can’t go and see universes being built.
You said:
So what? Thus Spake Zarathustra, Section 3, Line 9 says:
I can quote from books too. Big deal.
You said:
Sorry, no. Not good enough.
1. “Space is eternal. Therefore God is eternal.”
This is equivalent to:
2. “Space is eternal. Therefore the naturalistic universe is eternal.”
Statement 2 makes less groundless assumptions than statement 1, and thus it is more rational.
You’re yet to show why God is neccesary as First Cause. My entire argument is that the universe caused itself – it was its own first cause.
Consider this again:
3. “God is atemporal. Therefore he requires no cause. Therefore He is a fitting candidate for the First Cause.”
4. “The atemporal aspect of the universe is atemporal. Therefore it requires no cause. Therefore it is a fitting candidate for the First Cause.”
See? The justifications for God work just as well as the justifications for the naturalistic universe. One should not increase, beyond what is neccesary, the number of entities required to describe something. Since statement 3 assumes more than 4 (sentience, will, intent, and foresight on behalf of some divine being), and since 4 shows that these extra assumptions of statement 3 are unneccesary for describing the universe, it is irrational to consider them. You may as well say that the universe was created because the Cosmic Bovine farted it into existence and you’d carry just as much persuasive, logical weight.
God as first causes is a bogus argument.
You’re yet to show me why God is a neccesary entitity when it comes to describing the universe. Until this is done, it will remain rational to reject the hypothesis of his existence.
If you are honest about both options being a “hypothesis”, then you re showing bias for picking one over the other. Oh well.
If the universe is eternal, why has the sun not burned out? What about the 2nd law of thermodynamics?
I stand by my claim. Belief in God is self-evident and does not need to be further proved.
Being persuaded to support one hypothesis over a competing hypothesis due to objective evidence is the exact opposite of bias.
An atemporal aspect of the universe would be eternal, because it would be outside time. That’s what atemporal means.
The sun exists as part of the temporal, so it is not eternal.
You can believe whatever you want – but I assert that it is neither an evident nor a rational belief. Which brings us back to our original point.
All evidence shows that all thought and emotion takes place in the brain. It is irrational to think that our thoughts, feelings or emotions can exist without a brain. This gives strong support for the notion that there is no afterlife.
And in the absence of an afterlife, death is nothing to be feared.
So death is not a nightmare for nonbelievers: It is only believers that even need to worry about it in the first place.
Death is a nightmare for unbelievers. The knowledge of God being self evident combined with their conscience makes this so. The very fact that such lengths are made to say otherwise add to the evidence that this is true.
Heh. You’re just not interested in a rational argument, are you?
If you don’t value objective evidence, then I cannot persuade you.
I hope you a nice afterlife, Justin.
I am interested in rational arguments and value objective evidence. For instance, creation proves there is a Creator.
Come to the Savior, Jesus, to be saved. Otherwise, death is your nightmare.
Wow, absolutely amazing. what will they say to Jesus when they stand before Him? “you’re not real” or “I disproved you”- sad really, you can lead a horse to water… but then he’ll form a hypothesis that the water isn’t real, and that he doesn’t need to drink.
Six out of ten.
Interesting that just the last few days it became newsworthy to report that evolutionists do not know why mankind blushes when confronted with certain situations, including caught in a lie. It certainly does not prove the existence of a Creator, but it is just one more thing that they cannot explain scientifically. So they too have to accept many of their theories as fact based on faith and faith alone. Christians at least do have a man recognized by history who claimed there was a God and that He had come from heaven. His followers wrote about Him and called Him God in the flesh. They spoke of His dying and being raised from the dead. Most of His followers died for their faith in Him and for a lie if you come back with something like, “His followers were lying.” Maybe a couple of them would die for a lie, but the literal hundreds who died for their faith in this man called Jesus, you can’t convince too many people, even great skeptics that they would die for a lie that they KNEW was not true. And don’t talk about Jim Jones either as he tricked many of them and he had not left them as Jesus left His followers. No, they all died and many of them saw Him die, saw Him resurrected, and some saw Him ascend into heaven. On clouds, not a space ship. So, my take is, evolutionists point to first cause as do believers. Neither of either group was there, so there are no eyewitnesses. We know people die. There have been thousands upon thousands of people claiming the sightings of ghosts, apparitions of angels, demons, etc. Are they lying or are they the product of some mental phenomenon that has yet to be explained by science or are they actual events of other worldly manifestations that are truth. Again, we really don’t know as we don’t have any acceptable authority in current time or history that is recognized by the vast majority as the final answer. So I turned to Someone who claimed to have been on the other side, who according to His followers who died for HIm, that He Himself died and was raised from the dead. Now this man Jesus, if, as Josephus asks, if He was a man and not God, but Jesus according to the things His followers wrote of HIm, talked a great deal about death and dying and even heaven and hell. He was so convinced of His identity as the Son of God and that there was heaven and hell for mankind after death, that He died for their opportunity to spend eternity alive never to face death or sickness or unhappiness ever again. As far as I know, He is the only One in history who claimed to have been on the “heavenly” side and He was the only One in history to have died and be resurrected, not resuscitated, according to His followers, who, I feel I have to repeat this, who died believing in His identity as the Son of God. So while everyone else is basing their faith on things that they nor their founders can prove, at least I am basing my faith on the dedication of people who must have loved living as anyone but who died for their beliefs in Jesus Christ and by the way, their beliefs and their deaths were actually for others and not for themselves. Jesus died for others sins, not for His own “this life” benefit. This is against human nature. As one of the writers stated, I paraphrase, ‘I enjoy life instead of fear death.” Is that not a normal human thing to do? Unless of course, there is a reason to die for the sake of others. Soldiers have done this, parents have done this, so on. I suppose they all give up their lives because they truly believe that their deaths will help others live. We call them heroes, good people, etc. We honor them for their sacrifice. Even if there was nothing after death, we still give them glory for their sacrifice for others. Really, in my life, as I have thought about dying before, the one thing that I suppose I would lay my life down for is my family. Would I die for any of you without knowing you? Probably not. But if I were a soldier and believed in freedom or the American way, or whatever nation I lived in, then based on what I believed to be a good cause, then I would probably give up my life for people I didn’t know, as long as I died for a principle that I believed to be of greater value than my life. This is what Jesus did. To such a One I must give serious attention because He gave up His life for a cause He believed in and it was for others and it was for something beyond this world or life and even beyond this dimension where in this world He would receive absolutely no glory for HImself if it was not true. Yet He predicted that He would die and then would be raised and once again, His followers reported that is exactly what He did. So I read what they say He said and He said that there is a God, and that there is a heaven and hell, and that there is a judgment coming after death, and that humans can and will live for eternity and there is a place where they can spend eternity that is not a good place to spend eternity. Call it faith if you want, but I have faith in this because for me, there are no loopholes in His statements, life, death and reported resurrection. I can only tell you that once I began to truly believe this, the belief itself over the years has taken on a life of its own and my faith has become more like a knowledge that has grown in me almost to absolute truth. I will say this, if the evolutionists are right, then it matters not if I am wrong. Into oblivion I go and I know not. But if Jesus and Christians are right, then to the atheists, it matters greatly. I am covered either way. The evolutionist is covered only one way. Just check out the life of Jesus and think about why would He do this and then why would His followers die for Him. You may not find anything under the microscope or looking through the telescope, but like many other atheists who have done the same thing, you might turn out finding yourself steeped in faith in this man called Jesus. Robert Ingersoll the great thinker and agnostic of the 19th century said the following: “Standing in the presence of the Unknown, all have the same right to think, and all are equally interested in the great questions of origin and destiny. All I claim, all I plead for, is liberty of thought and expression. That is all. I do not pretend to tell what is absolutely true, but what I think is true. I do not pretend to tell all the truth.” Jesus claimed to be truth. So I listened, because great thinkers like Ingersoll could not give me a plausible answer to the great questions of origin and destiny. In America, I had liberty of thought and expression for the most part, yet the questions still hung over my head. People around me that I loved were dying off one by one, year after year. A slow yet steady and constant procession of death continued in front of my eyes. Many of which I knew and loved and felt cheated that all their goodness, all their love was now gone for ever. Or was it. How could I know? Like Ingersoll, I could not find anyone with an answer that had some rationale with it. Then I read about Jesus. It changed my life. It took awhile to examine and think about it all, but in the final analysis, He was the only thing, or One that made sense to me. He has some pretty rough things to say, like He says if you don’t believe in Him then the wrath of God remains on you. But if you believe in Him, not the religion that His followers have come up with, but if you believe in Him, then you would have eternal life. Well, you check it out for yourself.