by Justin
Did you even read the chapter?
11:53 pm in Bible Talk by Justin
A couple Mormons were at my door the other day. One of them I had already met and the other I had not. It turns out that the original partner had been transferred which is a common practice. We chatted for a while on things and the discussion eventually moved towards comparing the historic Christian and the Latter Day Saint’s faith.
I turned them to some verses in the Bible and read it two times. Then I read the “chapter summary” that comes in the Bibles that the LDS church gives out. Let me show you what I found. Romans 4:4-5: “Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.” These verses clearly point to a salvation of faith rather than adding works. But look at what the “chapter summary” says: “Man is justified by faith, righteous works, and grace.” What?!?! Did the publisher even read the chapter before including that in its chapter summary?
I asked one of the missionaries to read the two verses. I believe that actually reading the scripture with the help of the Holy Spirit can lead one to correct understanding. At first he did not want to read it, but after encouraging him to go ahead and read he did. I asked them if they believed the verses in the Bible and they said yes. I then said, let’s break it down. I asked them, if you work your reward is reckoned of what? They must have quickly seen what they would have to admit, because they then asked me what my interpretation was of the verses. Not wanting them to be able to say, “that’s just your interpretation”, I told them my interpretation was “Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.” The discussion went on, but this was the highlight for me. Pray that these two young men get saved.
- Justin
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The Joseph Smith Translation is included in the footnotes. Next to every verse that is changed there is a superscript letter which directs you to a corresponding footnote. Certain translations which are too large are included in an appendix.
I was told that the reason that they were not originally included was because the rights were passed to Joseph Smith’s children who–as it turns out–believed that in order to model the ancient church the prophetic mantle must be passed from father to son. Thus when Joseph Smith was killed, there was a dispute as to who should be the next prophet and certain members broke off. I think the rights to the Joseph Smith Translation were taken over by that Church.
Later, with permission by the break off Church (somebody can help me with the name I’m sure) a limited selection was included as footnotes in the LDS version of the Bible. They are generally accepted as authoritative and the chapter headings reflect that.
hehe in Utah standard “Mormon” response if the verse in the Bible doesn’t make sense is “Check the Joseph Smith Translation”
Matthew
Thanks again for that. The verses you refer to are not in the footnotes but in the endnotes. Your explanation doesn’t really answer my point that the Mormon Church is making the issue more confusing and not less. A simple and consistent message of salvation by grace through faith in Christ is rewritten by Jospeh Smith to say the opposaite of what the Bible originally said. That version is then buried in the endnotes while the chapter heading that accompanies it is added to the original text of the chapter causing the confusion that started this discussion in the first place.
Christians who take an interest in Mormonism are often accused of causing mischief by deliberately confusing what should be plain. In this case no one need go to such trouble since you have a church that scandalously changes what is already plain and consistent and then buries that change in endnotes because it is not in control of its own scripture while leaving the accompanying chapter heading above the original accurate translation whose meaning is the very opposite of the heading. How anyone can have confidence in the integrity of a church with such a tenuous hold of its own teachings is a mystery.
Hmm…it’s not really that confusing to me.
Regardless, I really don’t think that we’re disagreeing on the grace v works issue.
1. We are saved by grace.
2. Those who are saved produce good works, though their works don’t save them.
I don’t see a problem with this, nor do I disagree on any point, nor is it in conflict with the teachings of the LDS Church.
Let me work to resolve a misunderstanding that appears to be causing much argument…
To me, there are three types of people in this issue:
1. The person who thinks that they can be “good” in this life and that their efforts will save them.
2. The person who thinks that they are saved by grace, so they can be “bad” in this life.
3. The person who knows that they are saved by grace, so they try to be “good” in this life.
Now, the “Evangelists” (or whatever name can be used to classify the main body of people that aren’t “Mormon” on this thread
) are saying that all “Mormons” are type 1 and the “Mormons” are all saying that the “Evangelists” are type 2; but really, we are all trying to be type 3.
I don’t think that there’s a disagreement here, just people disagreeing
Matthew
You sum up the issue of faith and works very well and if you are trying to be a type 3 Christian and trust in Christ alone not in your efforts for salvation then bless you in it. The problem of the chapter heading remains of course and the fact that the Mormon Church is effectively not in control of its own Scriptures. As a consequence they are confusing the issue since the chapter heading contradicts the chapter content.
As to the official Mormon view of salvation and how we gain it I can’t get past the third Article of Faith that plainly states that “all mankind may be save, by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the gospel”. The fact that it is prefixed with the words “through the atonement of Jesus Christ” doesn’t change those words “saved by obedience” and nor does the comma Mormons sometimes point out to me. It is not a matter of theology but of plain English. “Saved by obedience” is not “saved by Christ”.
As a former Mormon who taught seminary, institute and priesthood classes for many years I know full well what these words mean, which meaning is clearly reflected in the chapter heading:
“Man is justified by faith, righteous works, and grace”
This stands in stark contrast to the chapter content:
“To him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness” (v5)
The heading says that those who do righteous works are saved while the chapter says that God “justies the ungodly” who put their trust in Jesus. To emulate your own excellent working of clarity into the question I would say that to a Mormon the one who does righteous works is saved while to an Evangelical Christian the one who is saved does righteous works. The distinction is very real and very important.
The simplest and most plain answer is that the LDS Church teaches and believes that we are saved through the Atonement of Christ. That we are not capable of saving ourselves, and that we should do our best to follow the commandments in this life.
If that’s not good enough…I will indulge.
Here’s the full text of the Third Article of Faith:
“We believe that through the Atonement of Christ, all mankind may be saved, by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel.”
Now, if you are saying that the Article of Faith contradicts the belief that I first mentioned, I will show you that it does not.
I will explain.
Obedience is and always has been the goal of mankind since long before our first parents were placed in the Garden of Eden. To be in a state where one is in complete compliance with all of the laws and ordinances of the Gospel is to be saved.
That merits restatement:
To be in a state where one is in complete compliance with all of the laws and ordinances of the Gospel is to be saved.
Let me explain my reasoning:
1. “Heaven” is a place where sin does not exist.
2. A place where sin does not exist is a place where all things are in compliance with all of the laws and ordinances of the Gospel.
3. If we desire to be in “Heaven” we desire to be in compliance with all of the laws and ordinances of the Gospel.
4. Comply = Obey
Now here’s the catch. I want to be obedient to all of the laws and ordinances of the Gospel; however, I can’t! I’ve tried, I’ve failed, I sincerely think that all future attempts in this life will also result in failure. I keep trying
Nevertheless, I cannot be in “Heaven” and continue sinning. Sin cannot exist in “Heaven”. This creates a dilemma.
Note: Obedience is not the same as saved, to be completely obedient is to be saved.
Now, the Third Article of Faith provides the solution:
“We believe that through the Atonement of Christ, all mankind may be saved, by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel.”
This means that through the Atonement of Christ we can be obedient, and through obedience we can become completely obedient, and when we are completely obedient we will be free from the bondage of sin and saved.
The Atonement is what enables our obedience.
John 15:5 “I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.”
We cannot be obedient without the enabling power of Grace. Grace lets us be obedient (obedience is a fruit made possible by Christ’s Grace) and through obedience we can be saved.
The simplest answer is the one I gave in the beginning. Why do you need more than for me to say that we believe that we are saved by Grace, but should still do our best to keep the commandments?
I can try to simplify more…
Obedience is a goal that is made possible by grace. Obedience is the beginning of and leads to salvation.
Through the Atonement we can be saved by obedience.
Matthew
You state, “Through the Atonement we can be saved by obedience.”
The Grace of God enables us to obey and to obey is to be saved?
But the chapter says the opposite of that and JS has had to change it to mean what you say. The Bible offers a clear challenge to the Mormon view that we are “saved by obedience”:
“But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise grace is no longer grace. ” (Ro.11:6 NASB)
Obedience is works I am sure you will agree but the Bible makes clear that if we are saved on the basis of works then grace is no longer grace. They are mutally exclusive and it is not true as you say:
“…that through the Atonement of Christ we can be obedient, and through obedience we can become completely obedient, and when we are completely obedient we will be free from the bondage of sin and saved.”
The whole argument in this chapter is that Abraham was counted righteous because he believed God and not because he “obeyed”. His obedience came afterwards when he received the sign of circumcision Ro.4:10
Ro.4:2 He was not put right with God because of the things he did; 4:3 He was counted righteous because he believed; 4:4 grace is a gift not wages for work done; 4:5 the one who trusts God and doesn’t work is counted righteous; 4:6/7/8 because they are forgiven and their sin is not counted against them.
Yes God prepares us for good works (Eph.2:10) but note only after he has created us anew and made us his workmanship. The Christian is saved by grace through faith in Christ and born again, or created anew for good works. People who do good work and rely on them to any degree will not be saved but people who trust Jesus will be saved and be fitted for good works.
To be saved is to be in a state where we are completely obedient.
To say otherwise is to say that we can continue to sin in God’s presence in the next life. Can you imagine murderers in “Heaven”?
Do you disagree that to be saved is to be obedient? If so, can you imagine sin in God’s Kingdom? Do you believe that His kingdom will be full if liars and thieves and adulterers?
If to be saved is anything less than complete abstinence from sin, then either God’s kingdom will be full of sin or those who are “saved” will not be there.
Is salvation not obedience?
Anyways. We’re getting to the point where we’re just repeating ourselves which probably means we won’t be getting anywhere.
I find it silly that this whole time I’ve been trying to show you that we agree with you and you’ve been trying to prove that we don’t. I think you just want to fight.
Either way, I really don’t have anything to say beyond what’s been said, that:
We are saved by the Atonement of Christ.
Through the Atonement we can and should try to improve ourselves and do good works.
No amount of good works can save us.