by Justin
Meeting with Mormon Missionaries
2:10 am in Evangelism by Justin
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Wow, that was fun. A couple Mormon missionaries and a 15 year old guy from their church came to bring me a Bible today and “share a lesson”. I was expecting them to catch me off guard at least once with something, but it was basically your typical works righteousness wrapped with a few out of context Bible verses. They were so nice. One of them towards the end “shared their testimony” (which is about the same for every Mormon -I know the Book of Mormon is true, they say…) and seemed a bit over practiced, but for the most part, they were willing to go off their presentation to discuss the questions I had for them.
Some things I asked that may be helpful in a conversation when you talk to LDS missionaries:
- Why have I not heard about the civilizations of the Book of Mormon in my history classes?
- How do you know the Book if Mormon is true? (“I received a testimony from the Holy Ghost in my heart that it is true…) How does this align with Jeremiah 17:9 which tells us the heart is deceitfully wicked?
- How does one reach exaltation? (works righteous answer) How does this align with Ephesians 2:8-9? Note:If they say they are saved by grace, ask if that means they do not have to do what they said in their above works righteous answer. They will then say you do, shedding light that they believe contradictory to Ephesians 2:8-9.
- Is the Bible scripture? (of course!) Is the Bible perfect with no mistakes at all? (Well…)
I will post more about this conversation soon hopefully, but I wanted to get those out while they were fresh on my mind.
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Hi, I came across this blog and thought the experience with the missionaries was interesting, and assuming with the goal of adding knowledge/understanding to the experience, I thought I might be able to answer the ‘discussion’ questions:
1) You probably have heard of the civilazations before. The names that modern historians call these people are Mayans, Incans, Aztecs, etc., and as mentioned in the Book of Mormon, many of these people were very wicked (but not all, God had chosen sons and daughters in all lands).
2) We agree the heart can be deceiptful, and yet we believe as mentioned in galatians 5:22-23, that the fruits of the spirit can help us see the truth, (not only in our heart, but ALSO in our mind, otherwise we may be deceived).
3)Our beliefs on Grace and Works are 100% in line with the teachings of the Bible, we cannot be saved without grace. James explains the works/grace partnership best in 2:14-20 when he basically (although more eloquently) says that ‘faith without works is dead.’ I agree, besides, if you have TRUE faith, you will prove it with your works, yet even an with an honest effort will sin (and hopefully repent) along the way, so Christ’s Grace will still be the only way toward Salvation. In my opinion, if I say I have faith but make no attempt to follow Christ’s teachings through works, in my personal opinion that would make me a hypocrit.
4) Regarding the Bible, Mormons (members of the Chuch of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints) believe the Bible is the word of God and that as written by the prophets it was 100% perfect, but yes, as mortals have translated over time minor errors may have crept in, but we still hold the book to be the word of God as far as it has been translated correctly, and we also beleive the book of teachings written by Christ’s prophets in the Americas is true (The Book of Mormon).
I hope this helps shed more light on our faith,
I myself was a missionary about 2 years ago and although not all believed what I had to say, I at least appreciate when people listen with an open heart of understanding, remembering that in the end we are all childeren of our Heavenly Father and all deserve to treat eachother with respect and kindness.
1) No outside proof of this. Just ask the Smithsonian Institute.
2) You could be deceived. Trust unchanging facts.
3) We are save by grace through faith alone, not “after all we can do”. True salvation will result in good works, but good works are not a requirement for salvation.
4) God promised to and has preserved His Word.
I am interested in their responses.
If you have another discussion, I would suggest asking them why the Book of Abraham is still part of their canonized scripture when Egyptologists have studied the papyri that Joseph Smith used to translate it and they have concluded that it is a fraud.
Hi again. I’ve noticed that you’ve had several conversations with LDS missionaries. I’m wondering how you became interested in talking to members or investigators of the LDS Church.
Zelph, yeah, I’ve heard that and that is one of the most intellectual arguments out there. I’m just not informed enough on it to make the case.
Sunlize, that is a good question. When I was in the 9th grade I beieve, I committed my life to God and began to share my faith frequently. A couple of years after that I found myself working at Chick-fil-A and one of my closest friends there was a Mormon. I had heard some things on Mormon beliefs – some of which is true and others that turned out to be false. This led me to look up for myself what the LDS church teaches and compare this to the Bible. I learned that the Mormon church teaches a salvation that cannot save, so this led me to share my faith with my Mormon friends. Through my search for truth and conversations with my friends, my knowledge of and interest in the Mormon church grew. I have since talked with several Mormons and a few missionaries. It all goes back to my wonderful Mormon friend from Chick-fil-A.
Good for you for engaging them in a thoughtful way. The Mormon friends and neighbors I’ve had are truly nice people to be around, but they are indeed deceived.
Hi Justin,
thanks for visiting my photo site. I am glad that you have such a good Mormon friend. It is cool you are learning more about the Church’s beliefs.
A really great site to visit is LINK REMOVED
You might also enjoy my other site:
LINK REMOVED
Sending best wishes on your spiritual journey. A wonderful guide is Philippians chapter 4 particularly verses 6-9, and I find that James 1:5 is also a lifeline. Keep in touch!
Justin,
You really should read the Book of Mormon before you judge it. Have you never heard “you can’t judge a book by it’s cover”?
How can you effectivally argue against it if you do not even know what it says?
-D
There is one main question to ask: Is the Mormon gospel the same as the Gospel of the Bible?
Before answering, consider Galatians 1:8-9 very carefully, even noting the part about the angel: But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let him be eternally condemned! As we have already said, so now I say again: If anybody is preaching to you a gospel other than what you accepted, let him be eternally condemned!
If the gospel according to the Book of Mormon is the same as what Paul preached, then it is redundant and I don’t need any new revelations (unless you are claiming that the Bible doesn’t contain the Gospel that Paul preached but that the Book of Mormon does, which would be an interesting argument).
If the gospel according to the Book of Mormon is different then I shouldn’t trust it and you shouldn’t teach it.
Either way, if you say you believe the Bible then you can’t make a case for the necessity of the Book of Mormon without denying Galatians 1:8-9.
From there, I would compare the claims of the LDS church against essential Christian doctrines: the Trinity, Jesus being the eternal creator God and not a created being, salvation by grace through faith and not by “doing all you can,” etc.
Neil,
The Gospel according to Paul is not the full gospel. If it were redundant to know further about the Gospel than what you can read from Paul then it is redundant to read from the first four books of the New Testament and the entire Old Testament of the Bible as well as any other scripture.
The Gospel contained in the Book of Mormon has no contradiction to the Bible. In fact there are places in the Bible that mention the Book of Mormon but not by name, so I don’t expect you to know about that.
Furthermore, the other items you are setting forth in challenge is still not contradictory, it is yet another view on the subject.
On this note: Please, inform me where you see the mention of “Trinity” in the Bible. I may have missed it.
Neil,
I am sorry I may have sounded argumentative in my previous posting, this was not my intent. I wanted to respond to your stated questions.
For the record: If you feel that you need no other scripture then you may not. I will not dictate to you what to believe or do for that matter. That being said, my issue with asking Justin to read the Book of Mormon is due to his arguments against it. He often refers to something he thinks it says and yet has admitted he has not read it. To make an accurate judgment on any book I’d suggest to first read it. Then you may pass judgment on the item. I had to read many books in school that I did not much like and it was only until I had read the book did I know what it said. About religious texts I’d also attempt to keep in mind context of the Myth you are reading: unless you believe it to be true already missing the context could endanger your opinion on a culture as well as their sacred narrative.
Peace in the Lord Jesus Christ
-D
ditchu, you said “You really should read the Book of Mormon before you judge it”. You have come to the opposite conclusion the LDS missionaries did. When they left, one of them said I had obviously read much of the Book of Mormon and he encouraged me to pray about it. I have read some of it, ditch, and it is inconsistent – with history and the Bible.
Hi Ditchu,
No problem.
“On this note: Please, inform me where you see the mention of “Trinity” in the Bible. I may have missed it.”
The question isn’t whether that word is in the Bible but whether the concept is. If you want to appear serious in defending LDS teachings, I encourage you to avoid such meaningless sound bites.
“The Gospel according to Paul is not the full gospel.”
Huh? What parts were missing? Again, the Bible is either incomplete – which seems like a bizarre thing for a Christian to say – or the Book of Mormon is redundant at best. Does the Book of Mormon teach a different Gospel than what Paul did? If yes, then run away from it. If no, then don’t bother with it. It came 1,800 years later under dubious conditions (missing gold plates, as opposed to what Peter taught about how the scriptures were transmitted, etc.).
There are a lot of things about Mormons that I appreciate. I mean this in all seriousness: If it weren’t for the fact that the LDS church and orthodox Christians are talking about a different J-e-s-u-s, we actually have a lot in common and a lot of things to emulate from them.
When my LDS friend stopped by at work and outlined his beliefs, I noted that I actually had more in common with him than I do with theologically liberal Christians: We both hold high views of scripture, are pro-family, pro-life, believe in the physical resurrection, that Jesus is the only way, the atonement, etc.
But again, their definition of Jesus is different than that of the Bible. It is not the same person.
Peace,
Neil
Neil, I really appreciate you stopping by to comment on my blog. You seem to know how to defend the Christian faith and know how to Biblically discern.
Thanks, Justin! I’m trying.
And I appreciate that people your age are engaged in the faith and standing up for the truth. I went to church pretty much my whole life but didn’t become a believer and actually pay attention until I was 28 or so. I wish I had started earlier!
Neil,
Firstly you should be aware that I was looking for the word “trinity” in the Bible. You are correct that it never uses that word but the concept is there in places. I have found that there is no conflict in the LDS Belief of the Godhead and the common belief of the trinity in most Evangelical Christian organizations. Let me sum it up for everyone that does not know what we are discussing here.
Most Evangelical Christian view of the Trinity (simplified): God the Father, Jesus Christ (his son), and the Holy Ghost/Holy Spirit, are three beings in one.
The LDS view of the Godhead (simplified): God the Father, Jesus Christ (his son), and the Holy Ghost/Holy Spirit, are three beings working as one.
Do you see conflict here? I do not.
Please let me know how you see it different than I just put it here.
About my comment of Paul’s Gospel in comment #10 in this post, was in direct response to your (Neil’s) comment, “If the gospel according to the Book of Mormon is the same as what Paul preached, then it is redundant and I don’t need any new revelations…”
&
“If the gospel according to the Book of Mormon is different then I shouldn’t trust it and you shouldn’t teach it.”
Taking your comments to mean that the only true Gospel of Christ is only from the words of Paul, you set up an paradox: If I have the words of Paul I need none other if it is the same thus redundant, If it is different than the words of Paul then I should not believe it and thus id in error.
I put to you a question in this paradox how do you use the Books of the Bible that Paul did not write?
Are they untrue, or are they redundant?
Do you use the same logic to “discern” other scriptures?
Peace in the Lord,
-D
Ditchu,
Yes, there is a conflict, even as you stated it. Three persons in the Godhead is different than three gods. But of course the even bigger difference goes much deeper: The Trinity is eternal (see Isaiah 43-45, among others) and is the only real God, unlike LDS teachings where God and Jesus (two separate beings) became God and where we’ll become Gods.
“Taking your comments to mean that the only true Gospel of Christ is only from the words of Paul”
Thanks for seeking clarification. That is not what I meant. I didn’t say that the only true Gospel came from Paul, but that if your gospel is different then by the clear words of the Bible you are in grave error.
And if it is the same – published 1800 years late, outside the Canon to a non-Apostle or follower of an Apostle, in a different manner than all other scripture was communicated (1 Peter), on some mysterious missing plates, with loads of errors, etc. then why bother with it?
The LDS is very deceptive. They lead with the “we’re Christian, too” message but clearly want to convert Christians to their plan. By their own clear words they think Christian religions aren’t valid, which is why they try to convert us.
I’m not offended that they think they are the right church. I’m offended by the disingenuous approach. They should be more honest about their differences and their intentions.
“I put to you a question in this paradox how do you use the Books of the Bible that Paul did not write?
Are they untrue, or are they redundant?”
All the books of the Bible are true. We supposedly agree on that. The book of Mormon is not in the Bible. It disagrees with the Bible on key doctrines. I don’t believe the book of Mormon. But if you claim that it does agree with the Bible, then you have nothing new to offer me, so I’ll skip the whole book of Mormon thing.
Neil,
It is fine with me if you wish to “skip the whole thing” and not read the Book of Mormon nor include it in your life. But If you output your dogma of how the Book of Mormon is incorrect according to you. then you are not skipping it.
What I do not understand is how you agree that the Bible is true scripture but judge other scripture by different standards.
Personally I do believe the Bible to be scripture but do see times in history that it may have been tampered with. I also (personally) see the Book of Mormon as evidence that the word in the Bible has validity. The Book of Mormon is a companion to the Bible and they complement each other.
The mere inclusion into the Cannon that is today’s Bible is not evidence to its truthfulness nor its quality of being the word of God. On this line of thinking I’d also submit that the mere exclusion of any scripture does not make them any less true or of less authority as the word of God.
You seem to think there are conflicts with-in these two works. I do not see them. Show forth what conflicts you see in the Bible and the Book of Mormon.
You also state about the Book of Mormon: “published 1800 years late, outside the Canon to a non-Apostle or follower of an Apostle”
Please for sake of this argument define Apostle.
Also, How were the Books of your Bible “published”? Was it published by an Apostle?
I think it interesting you point out the timing of the publication of the Book of Mormon and the Bible: The first publication of the Bible was printed in German. Before that hand written copies supplied many churches for their scriptures. Each time a copy was written it took a scribe to copy it letter by letter but even these many hours spent to copy the scriptures led to some small errors, I hope we have since sorted out and corrected. But how are we to know if the Bible contains no errors? Typos we can usually see and there has been some adjustments by scholars to eliminate the few typos, and I am glad for their efforts, but how are we to know they corrected the scriptures? I have pondered these questions for several years.
-D
I think your docturne as many people’s is not the direct reading of scripture. But as people contemplate and ponder the scriptures (as we all should) they create the Docturine that establishes their religious practices.
peace in the Lord,
-D
“The mere inclusion into the Cannon that is today’s Bible is not evidence to its truthfulness nor its quality of being the word of God.”
That seems to be an odd thing for a Mormon to say. I thought you all were in the “We believe the Bible completely plus the Book of Mormon as well” camp.
“Personally I do believe the Bible to be scripture but do see times in history that it may have been tampered with.”
I am familiar with the “long ending” of Mark and the woman at the well story, but the only other transmission errors are the in the typo category. Are you aware of others, and especially any that impact Christian doctrines?
Apostle = the twelve Apostles plus Paul (direct contact with Christ). They or their direct associates (e.g., Mark, Luke) wrote the NT. It was one of the criteria for Canonization. Joseph Smith does not meet that requirement nor does the transmission to him jive with the process of inspiration described by Peter (in 2 Peter 1).
“But how are we to know if the Bible contains no errors?”
That is an important question for anyone claiming to trust the Bible. Here’s the short version: the art and science of textual criticism (e.g., analysis of ancient texts) makes this rather straight forward. Even people hostile to Christianity, such as Bart Erhman (author of “Misquoting Jesus”) concede that we know what the originals said. He just thinks that any transmission errors at all mean it couldn’t have been inspired by God.
When we have ~5,000 full and partial copies of ancient NT manuscripts found around the world in various centuries, it is easy to see what the originals said. If someone wanted to change something they would have had to retrieve and edit all the copies in the world, and that is simply impossible. Hope that helps. Here’s a link with a simple but useful illustration – http://www.str.org/site/News2?page=NewsArticle&id=6068
“You seem to think there are conflicts with-in these two works. I do not see them. Show forth what conflicts you see in the Bible and the Book of Mormon.”
We’re back in circles again. Jesus is the eternal God in the Bible. There is one God in the Bible and no others (Isaiah 43-45). You are saved by grace, through faith, not by works.
In the Book of Mormon there are multiple Gods. You become God. Jesus is a created being. You are saved if you “do all you can.”
So there are many big differences. But again, if your claim is that there are no major differences, why do you try to convert Christians to Mormonism?
Neil,
Let’s be clear on this. I will make my statement again:
The mere inclusion into the Cannon that is today’s Bible is not evidence to its truthfulness nor its quality of being the word of God. On this line of thinking I’d also submit that the mere exclusion of any scripture does not make them any less true or of less authority as the word of God.
There needs to be more that some person in history deciding to include a manuscript in a cannon to make it scripture. Although I personally agree that the Bible is inspired by God and I personally revere it as scripture, my decision on this is not due to a meeting that happened in 330 AD. I have a personal testimony of the scriptural value of the Bible, as I do of some other scripture.
As a “Mormon” I am constantly encouraged to develop my testimony and faith in what is true. If you want to know what “Camp” we “Mormons” are in we have laid out 13 articles of Faith for you to look at (Just look up LDS articles of faith). What “Camp” are you in?
Thank you for the definition of Apostle, with it you stated:
“Apostle = the twelve Apostles plus Paul (direct contact with Christ). They or their direct associates (e.g., Mark, Luke) wrote the NT. It was one of the criteria for Canonization. Joseph Smith does not meet that requirement…”
But you fail to see how Joseph Smith does meet this criteria, He saw Jesus Christ too, thus direct contact.
I do have issue with your stated criteria, how did the authors of the Old Testament have this “direct contact with Christ”? Or, do you not subscribe to the idea that the Old Testament counts as scripture?
About Bart Erhman you made this statement:
“Bart Erhman… He just thinks that any transmission errors at all mean it couldn’t have been inspired by God.”
I disagree with this line of thinking by Mr. Erhman. I tend to think “any transmission errors at all” are due to the fallibility of people, even with the best of intentions and direct inspiration from God some errors are bound to be exhibited my the men writing the record.
You stated:
“In the Book of Mormon there are multiple Gods. You become God. Jesus is a created being. You are saved if you do all you can.”
Where in the Book of Mormon are you getting, “You become God”?
In the Old Testament there are multiple Gods, in Exodus the people led by Moses returned to the worship of other Gods. But I suppose you are talking about how the Godhead in separated into three beings. Well, in the New Testament there is a curious thing that happens if Jesus Christ is God the Father, Why does he pray to his Father in Heaven? Is he offering Prayer to himself? That seems like the thing a charlatan would do. The Book of Mormon does not suggest anything different that what you find in the New Testament. The only differing factor in the teachings of Jesus is that when he visited the Book of Mormon peoples he had already died and was a resurrected being.
Your Statement:
“You are saved by grace, through faith, not by works”
But I shall remind you that, “ Faith without works is Dead.” Also we are going to get into semantics here about what salvation is. From what I understand you mean by being “saved” you are correct even according to my religion as far as I understand it. Jesus Christ Suffered and Dies for the Sins of the World, he paid the debt we all owe. All we need to be “saved” or go to “Heaven” is to believe in Jesus Christ, right?
What the LDS Church teaches is that there are differing degrees of glory that we partake in the after-life, including none. The only beings that are subjected to the “None” part of the Glory of God are those who do not choose to be “saved”, or another way to look at it these beings rebel against God and do not accept the sacrifice of Christ when they have full knowledge of the gospel and know the result of their decision. This “None” part of the Glory of God we “Mormons” call outer darkness, you may have heard it as the “outcast”.
If someone would have faith in Christ, they would do all they could to follow his example. This is the works you speak of. If that person died before baptism or before they could possibly show forth their Faith by works, are they “saved”? I say, “Yes they are!” and My “Mormon” Scriptures back me up on this because It is all about how I see the term “Save” “Saved” and “Salvation”.
Now if that person had the time, ability and Opportunity to show forth works of their faith (follow Christ) but choose not to, do they truly have Faith in Christ?
For Example, the rich man who asked Jesus how he could enter the Kingdom of Heaven (seems to have faith in Christ for that is who he approached and asked the right question) but did not do as Christ said in his answer (not follow Christ). Is his faith sufficient to “Save” him?
Or shall I ask, did he truly have Faith in Christ?
You ask me: “why do you try to convert Christians to Mormonism?”
My answer is this, We “Mormons” as Christians try to share with people (all people) the truth we have found, we share the Gospel of Christ as we know it and we share the Plan our Heavenly Father has for all of us, his Children ( all people), to return to him. It may seem funny but all members of the LDS church are converts in a way. We have converted from “The natural man” to “Followers of Christ (what many call Christians)”.
Peace in the Lord Jesus Christ,
-D
“The mere inclusion into the Cannon that is today’s Bible is not evidence to its truthfulness nor its quality of being the word of God.”
Please acknowledge that you are in disagreement with all the Mormons that come to my door and presumably with LDS doctrine.
“I have a personal testimony of the scriptural value of the Bible”
“I do have issue with your stated criteria, how did the authors of the Old Testament have this “direct contact with Christ”
Please read more carefully. I was referring to the NT.
Sorry, but that is precious – I shouldn’t believe the Canon but I should trust you? I have a personal testimony that the Book of Mormon is full of Satan’s lies. Looks like we’re at a standstill.
“Where in the Book of Mormon are you getting, “You become God”?”
Please don’t waste my time. You know that Mormonism is polytheistic.
“What the LDS Church teaches is that there are differing degrees of glory that we partake in the after-life, including none”
Right, that is a false teaching of the LDS church that is not found in the Bible.
“his Children ( all people), to return to him”
You should do a word search in the Bible. The only people referred to as children of God are believers.
As usual, you jump back and forth between the “we’re the same” and the “we’re different” messages at your convenience. Disingenuousness is not a good work.
Neil,
You should take a closer look at my statement. I do mean it literally.
Ok, so you know what I am saying I will pose a question to you. What tells you that the Bible is true?
For me and many other LDS members that I know do not use the fact that the scripture included in the Bible was the decided on in 330 AD at what we could call a conference led by the Roman Emperor Constantine I. That is not proof of its truthfulness nor should be equated as proof.
Waste your time? You are the one wasting your time. You precisely stated: “In the Book of Mormon there are multiple Gods. You become God.”
So where is it?
If you don’t want to back up your statements like this, why make them?
You make differing criteria for Old and New Testament entries? Why? Are they not in the same Bible?
I think it is your intolerance and hatred that prevent you from seeing the simple truth that we are looking at the same thing from different view points.
You say, “You should do a word search in the Bible. The only people referred to as children of God are believers.”
Ok. well in this limited view the People of the LDS church are still children of God (as much as all you selective Christians are).
By the way I don’t disagree with the “Mormons” who believe the Bible to be True. I believe the Bible to be True, but you are missing my point that just because Constantine I and the people who meet in Nicaea in about 330 AD say it’s true does not make it so.
My Testimony came from study, question, testing my Faith and receiving Answers directly. You,(And I hope I am wrong about my summation of you) in your limited view would know nothing about this because (as your responses suggest) someone said it was true you take it as such.
You state: “I shouldn’t believe the Canon but I should trust you? I have a personal testimony that the Book of Mormon is full of Satan’s lies. Looks like we’re at a standstill.”
No, I am telling you to find out for your self that the Bible is true and don’t rely on a second hand Testimony on the matter. Don’t just take my word for it. Challenge yourself, Find out if it is True! Pray about it if you believe in Prayer.
About Satan’s lies: I have heard several of these lies, so many I can recognize Satan’s deceitful voice, then I got out of those churches that propagated the hatred and conflict against other Christians.
I have also heard the Truth and the soft gentle voice that supports Compassion, service, and righteousness, (that voice I recognize as the Holy Spirit and is extremely different that your Satan) is the same that tells me there is truth in the Bible and in the Book of Mormon. So what voice do you listen to?
Peace in the Lord Jesus Christ,
-D
P.S. it is the same Gospel, the same text, the same item, what is different is the perspective we have of it. Did you understand what I am saying now?
“If you don’t want to back up your statements like this, why make them?”
This is getting unproductive. Stop by my blog if you like. I’ve got a Mormon thread going there as well. It would be fun to get you guys together with your constantly changing stories.
You and I both know Mormonism is polytheistic. Or if you don’t know that, you need to study your own teachings.
“Pray about it if you believe in Prayer.”
I did. The book of Mormon is false.
When I hear voices or have thoughts I am unsure of I compare them to what the Bible says. Works every time. I know the Bible is true, but not because of some “burning in the bosom.” The Bible doesn’t say to use that as a test for extra-biblical books.
“it is the same Gospel, the same text, the same item, what is different is the perspective we have of it. Did you understand what I am saying now?”
No, you are going in circles again, just like the rest – pretending you’re part of orthodox Christianity when your own founders and leaders make it clear that the LDS church doesn’t believe that. And if it is the same gospel, I don’t need the book of Mormon.
Peace,
Neil
neil,
just cover your ears and say “go away” three times.
…
Am I gone yet? Oh, guess it dosen’t work.
You make claims an cannot back them up i think so you turn to insult and distraction. And you say I keep jumping back and fourth. Also any circular argument here is due to your unwillingness to accept my argument as my argument. You cannot back up your statments, you cannot effectivaly deal with mine, so you attack my Faith(Which I should add that you do not know enough about and lack the understanding as showen by your week attacks.)
So, if you are fine with out the Book of Mormon, it’s fine by me.
-D
Just because I got tired of this thread and focused my attention elsewhere doesn’t mean you need to get silly and do the very thing you are accusing me of. I know plenty about the Mormon cult. I’ve spent hours talking with a Bishop and many of your visitors. I backed up my thread with the Bible, the one you claim to believe but really don’t.
Neil,
I think you know exactly what I am asking you to try to back up. You made a blatant and direct statement:
“In the Book of Mormon there are multiple Gods. You become God. Jesus is a created being. You are saved if you do all you can.”
When I asked you to prove your statement about what the Book of Mormon says, i.e. “You become God.” Where does the Book of Mormon say this?
You respond with evading the question, “Don’t waste my time.” Well you would not waste anybody’s time if you would make statements you can back-up when asked to. In fact you are mistaken and wrong in this comment. Then Book of Mormon says nothing about, “You become God.”
I think you need to check your sources. Oh, and the LDS use the Bible as part of our scriptures so you may be getting mixed up where we are finding the textual bases for our Doctrine.
Peace in the Lord Jesus Christ,
-D
P.S. I think I will avoid commenting on your Blog at present, I would not want to tempt you to make changes to the comments I post.
Nice try. I never change comments, though I do delete comments that don’t meet the policy (ad homs, off topic, etc.).
I’ll be generous, for the sake of argument, and restate my position: Mormonism teaches polytheism, and that teaching may or may not be in the Book of Mormon (“another Testament”of Jesus Christ – which seems odd, since that would imply that it is different than the New Testament). Now, do you deny that Mormonism teaches polytheism? If so, please correct 100% of the Mormons I have talked to.
And I do have a reference for the “do all you can” quote: One of the errors of Mormonism is in 2 Nephi 25:23, which reads, “For we labor diligently to write, to persuade our children, and also our brethren, to believe in Christ, and to be reconciled to God; for we know that it is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do.”
That sounds humble enough. It makes it appear that we are saved by grace and the sacrifice of Jesus. It sounds like the Bible, but there is a big difference. Look more carefully and see what really saves you:
A. You do all you can, and you are saved by grace.
B. You don’t do all you can, so you are not saved.
So what is the difference between the two? It is all about what you do, not about what Jesus did. In that case, it isn’t grace that saves you, it is your works.
If anyone teaches a method of salvation based on Jesus Plus (e.g., his sacrifice plus your good deeds) or Jesus Minus (e.g., “Jesus is one way, but other religions are just as good”) then you have a heresy on your hands.
That smiley face should have been a quotation mark and a right parenthesis. That is the 4th time I’ve seen that in the last couple days. Is it some new WordPress shortcut? I don’t like it!
Neil,
Here is a simplified version of the Saved by Grace issue(I doubt that many other “Mormon’s” would give it to you this way, so I will be direct and to the point.) :
We are “saved” by the grace of Christ(Grace)! We choose to accept this “Salvation” when we have Faith in him(Faith). If we truly have Faith in Christ we will “do all we can” to follow his Teachings and example (Works).
So you should be able to see that you are right and so are the teachings on this subject in the LDS church. You are correct that it is by the grace of God that we are “Saved”. It takes Faith in Christ for us to accept the gift of our “Salvation” and when we have Faith, we would do all we can to follow Christ this is considered “works”. If you boil away at the Gospel and cut it as deep as you can to get to the center core of it you will only see: that it is by the grace of God that we are “Saved”. I tend to agree with you on this point but include that after we accept that Jesus Christ Died for our sins and we are saved by grace, we put our Faith in Him to accept his gift, and if we have faith in Christ it changes our lives and we want to follow him, so if we can, we do!
That is the full view of this issue.
This should jive with the Bible because there are examples of this in Mathew 19, Mark 10, and Luke 18.
-D
To avoid the ?) I use a space between the punctiuation. like this( ? ).
Neil you must have typed the
with the : and )
By the way how do you not see the trinity as a pantheon of deities?
Is God the father and Jesus Christ the same exact being? Then please explain the meta-physics behind the Birth of Christ and when he prayed to his Father in Heaven. Who was he praying to?
-D
There is a big problem with your answer about grace, and it is found in your text: “for we know that it is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do.” [emphasis added]
That is clearly different than what you wrote, what the Bible says, and what every Mormon – including a Bishop – has told me.
If you are interested in learning more about the Trinity, click here for some basics – http://www.carm.org/questions_God.htm
But first, please consider addressing my previous question: “Now, do you deny that Mormonism teaches polytheism?” Do you become a god?
I did some checking and you appear to be right that the book of Mormon doesn’t teach this. So are all the Mormons I have spoken with mistaken, or is did the Book of Mormon neglect to mention this? Or is there “Another Another Testament of Jesus Christ?”
Neil,
I know about the Trinity. I have studied the trinity in religious context for about 14 solid years. At age 16 I was told that I had a firm grasp on the Trinity by my Lutheran Pastor. I had from age 16-19 studied religion from the vantage point of 3 different religious originations, each have differing views on God and the Trinity. I have not stopped in growing in my understand of these matters.
You would quibble over one word that does not have the implication you seem to think it does.
Reread that line twice, once removing the word after and again in full. What connotation are you implying the word “after” creates in the verse?
It’s a matter of timing.
In your view of the Gospel, answer me these questions:
Will God “save” those who do not accept Jesus Christ’s sacrifice?
Will God Force “Salvation” on those who chose not to take it?
Will God allow anyone to chose to accept “salvation” that was made for them?
-D
I will give you this answer to “do you deny that Mormonism teaches polytheism?” Please keep it in it’s entirity.
No, I do not deny that the all Christianity teaches Polytheism. I can not confirm nor deny this because it is subject to your intupratation. In one view the trinity is a form of Polythiesm, though there is one God, there are three agents of that God and it can be seen as three gods.
What you do not seem to understand about the beleif of one becoming a god is this: there is an idea that you can become a god, notice that you do not become God, but the dimunitive ‘g’ is intentional because accouding to this idea you can become a god and create worlds as God has created this world. I am unsure at this time where this idea came from but I am sure it is linkes to a revelation from one of our Prophets. With out knowing the origin of the idea it is dificult for me to aclaim or deny it.
-D
“What connotation are you implying the word “after” creates in the verse?”
Let’s close out this topic first, or the rest will be irrelevant. The book of Mormon – which allegedly is the most perfect book ever, moreso than the Bible – says you are saved after all we can do. As I spelled out above, that is a very clear dependency: If you don’t do all you can do, then you aren’t saved.
Coming from someone who has definitely not done “all he can do,” I would be hopeless under that definition. The wording is very clear, and it just so happens that every Mormon I’ve addressed this with agrees with that interpretation and insists that you must have good works to be saved. Maybe they are all wrong, but they seem to be in sync with the Book of Mormon but not the Bible.
Re. polytheism – perhaps I didn’t ask the questions the right way. Aside from the Father, Son and Holy Ghost, however you like to describe them, will LDS adherents become gods or Gods?
If yes, then where does that teaching come from? I don’t see a hint of that in the Bible and we seem to agree that it isn’t in the Book of Mormon.
If no, why do so many Mormons teach it?
The “after we do all we can” is just the wirter’s way of saying that We must have Faith in Christ and if we have Faith in him we will do works accordingly.
You are not condemed because you have not done all you could have to follow christ. You should realize that it is not a condeming statment but a liberating one. see, if you have Faith and die before you can do anything to show that faith by following Christ, you are still in the “Saved” catagory because any of these works that show your Faith in Christ, you were prevented from doing, but by God’s grace you have your “Salvation”.
On the the gods stuff: You question “will LDS adherents become gods or Gods?”
I can only answer this from my limmated point of view and so I do not speak for the church on this topic, so my answer is: I don’t know! My opinion (which is more what you are looking for from me) is this: I think we all have the potential to become Like God but not him. I think we can be able to create worlds and life at some point in the future.
I look at eturnity in a different perspective than most people even different than many LDS. I see it this way. I was born and grow, I became an adult, had a child and am a father. My father thus became a grandfather. One day my son will grow and have children and he will become a father, and I a grandfather and my dad a great-grandfather. One day his children will have children, and the cycle goes on…
I am born, and have a Father in Heaven (God), I am growing…
I see the pattern displayed in this life on the earth, and beleive it is a representation of the eturnal patern.
Does that answer your question?
Again I do not speak for others, this is how I see it.
I do not know what the idea you are questing after is based on and with out the original context I will not venture beyond my personal opinion.
-D
Another side to the god issue:
We have many gods on the earth today.
(yes I did mean the shock value in the statment)
Let me explain: anything you give your devotion to becomes a god. From money to politics to fame to idols, your time, energy, and focus makes these things gods. What do you desire or do that takes you away from the True God? What do we tend to devote ourselves to that may harm our relationship with God?
Philosophically speaking, what gods are in our lives? We all should ask ourselves: what gods do I worship? Is it only the one true God?
Humm.
“The “after we do all we can” is just the wirter’s way of saying that We must have Faith in Christ and if we have Faith in him we will do works accordingly.”
You are entitled to your interpretation, but that is not what the words say in “the most perfect book ever written.” It says, “after,” and it will always say, “after.” Every other Mormon I’ve talked to interpets it that way.
And perhaps I’ve been misinformed, but aren’t these steps required as well?
Step #1:Have faith in Christ
Step #2:Be repentant
Step #3: Be baptized by the LDS Church
Step #4: Receive the Holy Ghost by the laying on of hands from a member of the Melchizedek priesthood
Step #5: Males are ordained into the Melchizedek Priesthood
Step #6: Receive temple endowments
Step #7: Participate in celestial marriage
Step #8: Observe the word of wisdom
Step #9: Sustain the prophet
Step #10: Tithe
Step #11: Attend sacrament meetings
Step #12: Obey the church
“Does that answer your question?” [re. becoming Gods]
No, not at all, since you didn’t even offer a firm opinion. I appreciate the “don’t turn things into God / idols” sermonette, as that is a good reminder for all of us, but that is entirely besides the point of whether the LDS church teaches whether we become Gods.
Your list is quite extensive.
A missionary may be able to help you correct it, but we are talking about the summation of the Gospel of Christ are we not.
It is a common teaching in the LDS church, that there is a path to exaltation (which is beyond what you would call “Salvation” and some of those items would apply. But “Salvation” as most people see it is simplified as (Justin said once: “being saved”) “going to Heaven after you die. Some would argue that that is an option for us all. Others that only those chosen by God will have “salvation”. I think I have asked what your definition of Salvation is but did not get a response, If I did not I will now, What is your definition of Salvation?
I think it all boils down to our paradigms are dictating the Gospel to us.
You asked me for an answer to a question that I did not bring up. I gave you the best answer I have. In fact you brought up the polytheism issue and I attempted to give you me view point on the matter. If you want more information on the matter ask the “Mormons” who brought up the idea, if they can show you the revelation or what ever that this “Teaching” is from. You may be misinterpreting second hand information. The land mine I am trying to avoid by my answer is handing you second hand information with out knowing the source.
So I guess it is not the most prominent thing taught in the LDS church.
-D