Christian in College

I like people.  Real people.  Shawn is a real person.  Christians should be Biblical, Missional, Global, and Relational.  Today I am practicing relational and I want to help others understand atheism not by a scientific journal article or an apologetics video – but by talking to a person.  Below is an interview taken via email.  Enjoy.

Justin (interviewer)
Shawn (atheist friend)

Tell me a little bit about yourself including your interests, your work, and your family?

 Well, I’m a 28 year old atheist man who is married to a wonderful Christian wife. We have a 4 year old daughter. At work, I’m a Licensed Clinical Social Worker and providing outreach, resource and referral, and crisis services for people experiencing homelessness. I read comics, I play video games, I love sci-fi and fantasy, and I’m a big fan of Jonathan Coulton. I’m an information junkie; I love reading blogs and crawling Wikipedia. I used to play the saxophone, but that feels like a lifetime ago.

What is the most important thing to you?

Hmm… that’s a tough to answer mostly because of the way it’s worded. When I think of “things” I think of items, possessions, etc. I think of a “thing” as something I own, a belonging. Things are tools, means to ends and not the end itself. Things can help bring about happiness and contentment but can never make anyone happy by themselves.

A better question would be “what is most important to me.” And I haven’t the foggiest idea what would top the list at #1. I can list several things that are very important to me: my wife, my daughter, being able to help people, growth, being effectual, enjoying life, having new and varied experiences, learning. But I don’t think I’d label one thing as “most important” kinda how you don’t pick your favorite amongst your children.

What event in history during your life most sticks out to you?

Again, “most” is hard for me because there are a lot of them that are equally memorable and significant and influential. Also, I’m not sure if you mean a historical event that happened while I was living or a historical event from my own life. But to play along and just pick one for discussion.

A few years ago when I was still a nondualist (didn’t know it was called that back then), I was sitting in a supervision session with my social work mentor. We were talking about my beliefs, specifically about how I wasn’t sure what it was called and I didn’t know anyone who shared the same beliefs. Through towards the end of the session he revealed that he too shared the same beliefs. I made the remark that I didn’t feel as alone anymore. He looked down at the floor, nodded his head, and smiled.

What is an atheist and do you claim that title?

Simply put, an atheist is someone who rejects the claim that deities exist. An atheist doesn’t necessarily assert that no deities exist, although I do.

I definitely claim the title of atheist, but I also misuse it for my own ends.

When I call myself an atheist, I also mean to say that I’m a secular humanist, a skeptic, a methodological naturalist, and a rationalist. I use the term to include the fact that I don’t believe in anything supernatural or superstitious. I believe that nature is all there is and that there is almost certainly no god or gods. I’m not 100% sure of course, but I’m pretty confident barring new evidence.

It is a complete misuse of the term, the error of which I fully embrace.

Is there a purpose to life?

I’ll word it this way: I don’t believe that there is an intrinsic, innate, universal purpose to life in general and as a whole. I believe that a goal of life is to reproduce and perpetuate. This goal is, I think, innate, but only because it has to do with how we use the word “life” in the first place, it’s how we define life.

Purpose describes intent while goal describes objective. I believe a life can have a purpose just as an object can have a purpose, but only when someone is around to assign a purpose to it. I think a theist would say that god gives us purpose, but I would obviously disagree because I don’t believe in gods.

Furthermore, I think when some people ask “is there a purpose to life” what there really asking is “is there a point to life”, “is there a reason for life”. The question framed this way practically presupposes a creator being (or beings) or at the very least, some kind of established system.  It’s scary to think that we’re just here alone with no big man in control, but we’re not alone. We have each other. We can (and do) make our own goals, and projects, and even make our own purpose. Sometimes we just call it different things.

How do you determine right and wrong?

I’m a big fan of Alfonso Fye’s Desire Utilitarianism model of morality.

Even at a young age, I’ve thought that intrinsic, universal concepts of “good” and “bad”, “right” and “wrong”, don’t actually exist. That what we think of as universal morality is basically culturally accepted norms (personal preference) that gets labeled as the laws of god or inalienable right to add weight to it. Who are we to question god? But in the end they universal laws and rules, concepts of right and wrong don’t actually exist, we just made them up.

But of course, personal preference isn’t good enough because preferences change all the time.  This is the crux of Euthyphro’s Dilemma: is it good because god says so, or does god say so because if it is good. Option 1 suggests that it’s just god’s personal preference. Option 2 suggest god himself has to meet a higher standard, and we’re still left with the original question.

Fye argues that desires are the only things we can say objectively exist. Because they actually exist, we can co-opt the term morality and make a code based on it. The short version is that desire utilitarianism says that things are “right” when they tend lead to the fulfillment of more and greater desires. As such, things are “wrong” when they tend to thwart the fulfillment of more and greater desires.

It’s all interesting, but wordy, so interested readers may want to Google it. But to answer your question in more practical, less theoretical terms: I look at the past, research the options, consult people smarter than me, consult those who disagree with me, argue my point, make the call, and live with the consequences.

Tell me a little about your experiences with Christians and the church?

Without being too verbose, because I can already see I’m getting long, I’ll just say that my experiences with Christians and the church have been mostly average. Nothing too exciting or too painful or too uplifting or too dramatic. I can give you one story that was really touching though.

During the summer before my senior year of high school, a friend of mine invited me to a church camp. It was a weeklong kinda thing. Half way through someone (possibly my bunk mate) stole all of my cash from my luggage. The very next morning, all of the other kids in my small group pooled their money and replaced every last dollar I had stolen from me. I don’t know when they got together to do it, but I cried when they did. The lord giveth and the lord taketh away?

That’s kinda been thematic of my experiences I guess, a bunch of really nice, well meaning people, with the occasional rotten egg who really knows how to ruin the party.

Are Christians “stupid”?

That’s a pretty broad question. I wouldn’t say all Christians are stupid. I think some Christians are stupid, but I’d venture to guess that the prevalence rate for Christian stupidity is pretty similar to that of the general population. I think some atheists are stupid too, along with some Jewish people, some Muslim people, etc. It’d be fun to see some data on this though.  We’d probably need an operational definition for “stupid.”

If I were to try and provide a better answer in the spirit of your question, I think Christians (like other spiritual groups) look at the world and come to a different, sometimes incorrect, conclusion. We all have questions, and I think spiritual people are less satisfied with “I don’t know yet” as a valid answer. Rather than reserving judgment until they can learn more, they assign an answer to the question to better understand it. This answer may not have been well researched or well investigated, but sometimes any answer feels better than no answer at all. I understand the desire and I don’t think it’s stupid, just misguided.

How could Christians positively impact your perception of them while still holding to the Bible?

Stop talking and start living. I understand that Christians aren’t supposed to be perfect, nobody is. However, when I look at someone who’s accepted Jesus into their hearts, something should look… I dunno… different.

Something should be different. If the scriptures are true and believers are fundamentally changed, Christians should be better than the rest of us: kinder, more compassionate, more loving, more understanding, more empathetic, less materialistic, less capitalistic less judgmental, less dramatic, more grounded, happier. Something that will make me think “hey, I want the life that person has, I want whatever they’re having too.”

I can tell you that one thing that negatively impacts my perception of Christians is that, in my experience, they behave the same, if not worse, than everyone else. For me, at the end of the day, actions matter more than intent. Results matter to me. If I can’t see the positive teachings of Jesus Christ reflected in your life, it doesn’t matter what the bible says. In other words, you can carry a weight loss book around all you want, and give me great advice all you want but if you’re still 300 pounds of mostly fat, I’m not going to listen.

The saying is cliché, but “practice what you preach” is a great start.

Can you think of a Biblical scripture or principle that would impact the world in a positive way if everyone believed or held to?

I don’t know if this is actually in the bible, but I heard it in church one day. The pastor said “Jesus loves so much that he accepts you where you are, but loves you too much to let you stay there”. I live by this at work, but replacing Jesus for me of course. Working with the homeless requires a lot of empathy, acceptance, and understanding of how a person came to this situation. But once we’re clear on that, all of those reasons become excuses. At some point, we need to throw away the excuses and start moving forward because those excuses are now holding us back.

Liberals too often cling to excuses and want to coddle people with welfare. Conservatives too often ignore root causes and systematic and interpersonal reasons and just want everyone to pull themselves up by their boot straps. I’m aware of the middle ground fallacy but, in this case, I think the responsible and ethical route in this case is a nice balance. It’s the difference between enabling or ignoring and empowering.

Give me a goal you have for the next week:

There are a bunch of homeless people who I’ve been working with over the summer now that I’d love to finally get off the street and into an apartment of their own. We’ve been stalled due to budget issues and bureaucracy but I think I’m in striking distance of making it happen.

Year?

 I’d like to have another kid. One more would be really nice for my wife and I, but if we don’t, I’m cool with that too.

5 years?

I would like to see my wife graduate with a college degree. She never got the chance to do it yet and she’s really excited to get started. She’s never had anyone in her life encourage her to achieve all that she can. It’s been a dream of hers for a while now and I intend to make that happen too.

Thanks for the opportunity, Justin! This was fun!

- posted online by Justin

Are you really living?

This post kind of bounces off another post by an atheist named Shawn at his blog, Belief in People.  He lists seven things to not assume because he is an atheist.  It made me think about assumptions I see people making that need corrected.  If we as Christians want to effectively reach atheists with the message of our purpose, the problem, and God’s solution, we need to not make these faulty assumptions.

Faulty Assumptions about Atheists

1. All atheists are angry - In fact, most atheists when approached one on one in a loving way can be generally pleasant.  Online is a different story in the sense that the very fact that they are speaking about it through a blog, video, or other means shows that they are likely passionate about their beliefs (or lack of it).  Many times this passion seems to come off as anger, but that is an assumption we just cannot make as Christians.  I have met some atheists who generally are angry – angry at the world, at Christians, at their parents, or one of millions of possibilities.  If you know them personally, build a relationship with them.  Talk about things besides your faith.  I am not talking about being ashamed of the gospel or holding it back from sharing with them.  I’m just saying that showing you care means showing you care about the complete package.  If you know them through the internet only, realize that some of that hostility may be a front.  They may feel that they have an online rep to protect – or they just may have that type of personality.  Don’t expect the fruit of the spirit from an unbeliever.  If they are hostile to everything you say, you may want to just be encouraging, express understanding when you can, and simply say “the door is open if you ever want to discuss my faith.”  Some people may open up through email in a way they wouldn’t have when what they are saying for all to see.

2) Atheists haven’t tried church – The sad fact is that churches are breeding grounds for atheism.  Why?  The church is an emergency room for the sinner rather than a museum for the saints, and while atheists don’t expect perfection, they do expect there to be a recognizable difference in the so called “Christians”.  There is too much hypocrisy.  Assure the atheist that there is hypocrisy in the church building, but they will ultimately be dealt with.  Some atheists will go further than simply saying they tried church.  They may say they were a Christian or even say they were “born again”.  Theologically this is just a mistake.  John 17:3 states “Now this is eternal life: that they may know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.”  An atheist could never say they were truly born again, because they don’t know God or Jesus Christ.  You may want to gently point this out.  Say that you are sorry that they tried the church thing and it didn’t work out, but that you aren’t pushing church.  You simply have discovered your purpose and have a relationship with Jesus that is significant.

3. Atheists haven’t examined the Bible – Many atheists have looked through the Bible – very, very closely.  The problem is that when they decided not to do the “faith thing”, they discovered that they are alone.  In the world today the vast majority believe in a higher power.  Atheists in America are surrounded by professing Christians, so it is often to their benefit to read the Bible.  But the Bible is a big book to read if you aren’t interested.  The solution?  To get online and go over lists of perceived injustices of God, verses that appear to contradict, and things that just plain sound weird in today’s culture.  Gently urge these atheists to get big picture by reading one book at a time.  Ask them to start with the book of John.  You might offer to read a book by Richard Dawkins or a famous atheist while they read the scripture.  If they refuse, simply be loving and in the context of this love, share the hope that is within you.

But this is a post about not making assumptions, so let’s not assume that there are not any atheists who have read the book cover to cover.  In this case I might ask them to share some things that they have learned from their study.  You might comment on what they give, and then share something you have learned from your studies of the scripture.  If you don’t know an answer to something an atheist asks, it is ok to say “I don’t know, but I’ll do some research and get back to you.”  One of things that really turns off atheists are “know-it-all Christians.”

These are three assumptions you should avoid?  What do you think?

- Justin
Are you really living?

I sent an email to an atheist to ask him some questions.  He responded with saying he would answer them after I answered some of his questions.  He asked the typical atheist questions (Noah’s ark, creation, the validity of the Bible).  After I gave him the answers he requested, his response was to say the following things:

“I believe your mother is a good whore.”

“… you’re an idiot.”

“you are in desperate need of knowing you’re a s**t for brains.”

Don’t you love the civility and intelligence of the “Brights” a.k.a. atheists?

- Justin

P.S. He didn’t answer my questions like he said he would.
Are you really living?

When Ray Comfort challenged Richard Dawkins to a debate on the existence of God, the professor refused, referring to Ray Comfort as the “Banana Man” and an ignorant fool.  Banana Man is a reference to an illustration by Ray Comfort in which he compared the complex design elements of a Coke can to the complex design elements of a banana in order to demonstrate that thoughtful design by a designer is required for both examples.  Over 1 million copies of this illustration were sold in the form of “The Atheist Test”.  However, atheists removed the Coke can from the video version and sent it across the internet saying that Comfort believed that the banana was conclusive proof of God’s existence, missing the point of the illustration completely.  They also said that the banana had been modified over time by man to fit in the palm of the hand, and not by God.  But in their effort to make him look foolish, atheists gave Ray Comfort an international platform for his message.  His book, You Can Lead an Atheist to Evidence, but You Can’t Make Him Think rocketed up the Amazon.com rankings on its first day of release, moving from number 69, 572 to number 38 in twenty-four hours and was the number one book in the categories of religion and atheism on Darwin Day – even bumping out Richard Dawkins’ The God Delusion.

Comfort apologized for his mistake about the banana, saying “my apologies for not explaining myself more clearly.  I was not aware that the common banana had been so modified through hybridization.  However, the truth remains that God gave man the knowledge and ability to modify it so that it perfectly fit into his hand.  He did the same with big dogs so that they could fit into our car and with wild cats, so that they our perfectly fit for the wife.”  Ray Comfort along with actor Kirk Cameron has debated atheists on ABC’s Nightline in 2007, was a platform speaker at American Atheists Inc 2001 national convention, and written many books on atheism, including God Doesn’t Believe in Atheists.

In reference to Dawkins, Comfort said, “In Expelled: No Intelligence Allowed, when Ben Stein asked Richard Dawkins ‘what do you think is the possibility that intelligent design might turn out to be the answer to some issues in genetics or in evolution’, he answered ‘at some earlier time somewhere in the universe a civilization evolved by probably some kind of Darwinian means to a very very high level of technology that designed a form of life that they seeded onto perhaps this planet – now that is a possibility and an intriguing possibility.  And I suppose that its possible that you might find evidence for that if you look at the details of biochemistry, molecular biology, you might find a signature of some sort of designer.”  Wait a second!  Richard Dawkins thought intelligent design might be a legitimate pursuit?  “And that designer could well be a higher intelligence from elsewhere in the universe, but that higher intelligence would itself have had to have come by some explicable or ultimately explicable process.  It couldn’t have just jumped into existence spontaneously and that’s the point.”

So Professor Dawkins was not against Intelligent Design – just certain types of designers such as God.  Professor Dawkins believes that highly intelligent aliens from somewhere in the universe may have created us.  Ray Comfort has lifted his offer to $20,000 to Professor Dawkins for thirty minutes of his time to explain why he believes that there is no God.  He suggested that the debate be called “Banana Man versus Alien Man” and let the audience decide who is the “ignorant fool”.  What does Professor Dawkins fear?  Will there be a debate?  Stay informed!  Check out PullThePlugOnAtheism.com

- Justin
Are you really living?

You could easily win three great books:

You Can Lead an Atheist to Evidence but You Can’t Make Him Think by Ray Comfort, The Atheist Bible, and The Charles Darwin Bible.  Listen to what Christian leaders have to say about this book:

“You don’t have to shut off your brain to have faith—and Ray Comfort proves it. He’s taking on those who deny God and Creation, and he’s making them look like the monkeys from whom we supposedly descended.”
—Joseph Farah, WorldNetDaily.com

“Ray Comfort has once again laid hold of the greatest power on earth, the power of the Gospel. Here he brings that power to bear, makes that light to shine in the darkest corners of our times, among fools. He proclaims with fidelity and winsomeness, remembering that such were once we, walking in the paths of darkness.”
—Dr. R.C. Sproul, Jr., The Consequences of Ideas

“I find it so encouraging that in these challenging times of ‘culture wars,’ Christian leaders like my friend Ray Comfort are passionately defending the authority of the Bible from its very first verse.”
—Ken Ham, The New Answers Book Read the rest of this entry →