by Justin
The Atheists' Nightmare: Themselves
31
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As we learn that the universe and human bodies are more and more complex than we ever thought, you can lean one direction or another: That the greater complexity means it was more likely that there was a creator behind the complexity, or that it was more likely that it occurred in a purposeless process after coming into being from nothing.
I think the former is more likely.
Of course the dilemma is if something that is complex requires a creator, then the creator, being a being far more complex than the creation must indeed have a creator.
Actually, that is not the case. There could be an eternally existent being. Named God.
If it is possible for a being to have always existed, then that is the same thing as saying that all the matter and energy in this universe has always existed and therefore God couldn’t have created the matter and energy since it has always existed.
You might say that all the matter and energy has always existed and so has God and that God simply organized matter to create life, and this is evident that something complex requires a creator, then once again, the creator is much more complex than the creation.
You said “If it is possible for a being to have always existed, then that is the same thing as saying that all the matter and energy in this universe has always existed and therefore God couldn’t have created the matter and energy since it has always existed.”
Actually, God could have created it…
God could have created it if it always existed? Really? How did that happen. Think about it.
If matter and energy has always existed, then there is no need for God. If it has just always existed, then it was never created. If it has always been around, then what could God possibly contribute to the equation if it is already there?
Unless you are anti-science then you would need to concede that the universe came into being at a point in time and will cease to exist at a point in time. If there was ever a time when there was absolutely nothing – no God and no material – then there would still be nothing.
No cause without causation, right? That is the same argument against God. If cause can not happen without causation, then God can not happen without causation. I see the dilemma on both sides. I am an agnostic deist, but will challenge both theists and atheists.
Zelph, consider this from the Way of the Master ministry:
To one who examines the evidence, there can be no doubt that God exists. Every building has a builder. Everything made has a maker. The fact of the existence of the Creator is axiomatic (self-evident). That’s why the Bible says, “The fool has said in his heart, ‘There is no God’” (Psalm 14:1). The professing atheist denies the common sense given to him by God, and defends his belief by thinking that the question “Who made God?” can’t be answered. This, he thinks, gives him license to deny the existence of God.
The question of who made God can be answered by simply looking at space and asking, “Does space have an end?” Obviously, it doesn’t. If there is a brick wall with “The End” written on it, the question arises, “What is behind the brick wall?” Strain the mind though it may, we have to believe (have faith) that space has no beginning and no end. The same applies with God. He has no beginning and no end. He is eternal.
The Bible also informs us that time is a dimension that God created, into which man was subjected. It even tells us that one day time will no longer exist. That will be called “eternity.” God Himself dwells outside of the dimension He created (2 Timothy 1:9, Titus 1:2). He dwells in eternity and is not subject to time. God spoke history before it came into being. He can move through time as a man flips through a history book.
Because we live in the dimension of time, logic and reason demand that everything must have a beginning and an end. We can understand the concept of God’s eternal nature the same way we understand the concept of space having no beginning and end—by faith. We simply have to believe they are so, even though such thoughts put a strain on our distinctly insufficient cerebrums.
From WOTM
So you are saying that God did not create space?
If space is eternal,that means it has always existed, therefore God is not necessary to create space since it has already existed.
Law of thermodynamics is that matter and energy is neither created nor destroyed. This means before the universe existed, all the matter an energy already existed in a different form. Perhaps it existed in a different universe.
To say that God is eternal is the same argument that energy is eternal. If energy is eternal, then there is no reason for God to be there, because he never created the energy or matter, since it was already there.
So you have 2 choices: Either God created energy and matter and God is eternal, or God never created energy and matter because energy and matter are eternal.
What is more likely? If something requires a creator because it is complex, when you compare the 2, God is the more complex being compared to inert matter and energy.
Zelph, are you even reading what I am saying? I am saying God is eternal and created time and all that is within it.
I know what you are saying, but that is not my question. My question is if time has always existed, how can it be created? If time, matter and energy have always existed, there is no need for God to create it, since it has always existed. How can God create something that has already always existed? Why would he need to create it if it is always existed? That is the question.
And I’m saying it hasn’t always existed. God created it.
Then who created God?
look at my previous comment from May 14, 2008 at 9:18 pm
I have read it and find it pretty unconvincing. Something as complex as God must have had a creator. God is far too complex to have happened by accident. There is obviously signs of an intelligent designer when it comes to the complexities of God.
You said “And I’m saying it(time, space, energy, matter) hasn’t always existed. God created it.
O.K. let’s think about this for a minute. Let’s go back to the moment when God created time, space, energy and matter. Now, let’s go back just before these were created. What did God do with all that time on his hands? I hear an eternity is a long time. Where did God dwell if there was no time, no space, no energy and no matter? You mean to tell me that before he created time, matter and energy he just dwelt in nothingness for an eternity before he created time and space? Sounds to me like he created space, time and energy out of boredom more than anything else.
I gave my explanation; you do not like it. I’m not gonna give you another one since the original is true. Have a nice day.
“What did God do with all that time on his hands?”
We don’t know. But that doesn’t qualify as evidence that God doesn’t exist. If you put your trust in Jesus Christ then you’ll spend eternity with God in Heaven and you can ask him then
.
“Something as complex as God must have had a creator. God is far too complex to have happened by accident.”
Those are curious statements. You seem to concede that complex effects require more complex causes. Yet our claim is that effects require causes. It doesn’t mean their can’t be an un-caused causer, namely God. Our claim isn’t that He happened by accident, but that He existed eternally. While we can’t prove it in the sense of 2+2=4, there is nothing illogical about the statement.
Remember, the alterntive view is that something came from nothing, gave us the incredible fine-tuning and organization of the universe, that life came from non-life and evolved in an impossibly fast fashion over a few billion years to get us where we are today. That seems far less logical to me than having an eternal creator God who made the universe.
Neil, I don’t buy into the idea that something came from nothing either. However, I think it is possible and more likely that this universe was created by a collision of 2 objects. Perhaps 2 universes collided together to create this universe.
Hi Zelph – I’m not sure how that advances the discussion. Where did the two universes come from? The first cause theory posits that if you keep going backwards you must come to an un-caused first cause. I really think it makes sense.
Ah yes, and in my view, it is no different to say that universes have always existed (eternally) than to say that God has always existed. I find both arguments the same in my book.
If the universe had always existed, then according to the 2nd law of thermodynamics the universe would not have order. Chaos. Plus, wouldn’t the sun have run out of light?
I do not believe that I have ever said that this universe has always existed. I said that universes (plural) have always existed eternally. I believe that most likely this universe was created by a collision, possibly between 2 different universes.
“I said that universes (plural) have always existed eternally.”
Do you have any evidence for the view that there are multiple universes and that they move around and collide, and that when two such incomprehensively large things collide that they form such a spectacularly fine-tuned new universe? I’m not aware of any of those having evidence, and I know I’ve never seen a collision that creates something so organized, and I’m struggling to see how you can think that is the most likely scenario.
I agree with you that the idea of multiple universes can not be proved or disproved and therefore is not scientific. However, The universe is only around 16 billion years old, and the energy has always existed. That would tell me that the energy existed in some other form before the existence of this universe.
My apologies if you already explained this, but how do we know the energy always existed?
Sorry, the first law of thermodynamics states that energy is not created nor destroyed it just changes form. Einstein’s equation E=mc^2 shows that matter and energy are really 2 different manifestations of the same thing (energy) So all the matter and energy in this universe is really just energy, and if it was never created, and can not ever be destroyed, the energy in this universe is eternal, meaning it had no beginning and has no end. However, this universe is only 16-20billion years old. This has led me to the idea that the energy in this universe existed before the universe itself existed, probably in a different form.
The reason I believe this universe was created by a collision is because of the way the galaxies are moving away from each other.
What is important to understand is that the universe we live in had a beginning, and it will also have an end.
Thanks for the background, but I don’t see how that means that God couldn’t have created the energy in the universe. When you consider the fantastic fine-tuning I don’t see how creating the energy would be difficult for him.
Cheers!
I am not saying that God can not create energy. However, what I am saying is that IF energy has always existed, THEN God is not necessary, since energy would never need to be created.
You could probably convince me that both God and energy have always existed and that God simply organized energy into matter, but in that scenario, God didn’t actually create the energy, so in a way it diminishes his role.
What about God created matter and energy?