by Justin
When the Mormons are at Your Door
11:36 pm in Evangelism by Justin
A few days ago, two nice missionaries from The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints along with a 15 year old guy from the local ward came to deliver a Bible to me that I had requested from them online. They asked if they could discuss a lesson so I agreed and invited them in. Here is how it went.
First they saw Ricky’s gun case and asked if we hunted. I guess they were looking for something to try to connect with us, which I don’t look down on them for – I do the same when making home visits. After just a little small talk, they wanted to get into discussing the Book of Mormon. I had mentioned earlier that I already had a Book of Mormon given to me earlier, so they asked me what I was told the Book of Mormon was. I had been told that the Book of Mormon was another testament of Jesus Christ and let them know that. They then went on into the story of how the BOM came to us. Throughout their story, I had a few questions to ask them. I asked how they knew the BOM was true. They responded that I should pray about whether or not it is true and had me read a verse from the BOM stating this (technically, it says to pray if the BOM is not true). I asked them if this was a false test, because if you felt something then it confirms the book, but if you don’t then it just means you were not sincere – there is no room for the BOM being wrong. There response was basically that they had experienced the Holy Spirit confirming to them and that it was like trying to describe salt to someone who had never tasted salt. I then asked them what about the warning of Jeremiah 17:9. This verse states (KJV) “The heart is deceitful above all things and beyond cure. Who can understand it?” I asked them how can we trust a heart that is deceitful. They paused for a moment and couldn’t really answer, except to say again that they had experienced it. I again said I didn’t think we can trust our feelings when we could be deceived and let them move on in their lesson.
When they came to discussing some of the Israelites coming on a boat to the Americas, I piped up, “well great, then we can just do some DNA testing and find out.” I knew that several DNA tests have been attempted and none of them are able to confirm the story of the BOM. In fact, they all testify to the story we have learned in our history classes. They said something about they were likely in the areas of the Mayas and Aztecs, but they really did not know. I knew that this was one of the arguments made by the LDS church and has its rebuttal, but I did not know it at the time and let it go. Even so, they seemed to admit there was little evidence and it must be taken by “faith”.
I then complimented the use of a map in the Bible they had given me. I then asked if there was a map to show where the civilizations mentioned in the Book of Mormon were. The missionaries further demonstrated that they did not really know. I think the 15 year old guy was learning more than the missionaries had originally intended.
At this point my Mom was in the room. She had told me earlier that she did not really know what the Mormons believed, so I aimed my questions to show simply that the Mormon church is not simply “another Christian denomination”. I asked them if they believed the Bible was the perfect Word of God. They said no and went into why they said it was not. Of course, the Bible can be trusted and is the perfect Word of God without any mixture of error, but that is for another post.
There was so much more that was discussed. Among this is:
*The missionaries believe God the Father has a body of flesh and bones.
*The missionaries are trusting in their works for salvation (note: if you ask them this, they may likely say no, but that is just because they can use the term salvation to mean the general resurrection of people after death which does not necessarily mean eternal life in Heaven. They do, however, trust in their good works as necessary for exaltation, their true salvation, which includes progressing into godhood).
*According to the missionaries, if I was not “saved” (again, moving towards exaltation), I would be put in a spirit world. They said this is similar to the Roman Catholic purgatory and they told me missionaries in the afterlife could convert me then. I said then why don’t I just wait until then, and they didn’t really have an answer for that surprisingly…
*So much more… maybe I will discuss them later.
Before they left the missionaries asked if they could come back sometime for another lesson. I told them I would look forward to it. Then one of the missionaries told me that I had obviously read much of the Book of Mormon and asked me if I would consider praying about it. I told him that on his next visit he could show me from the Bible that I should pray about the Book of Mormon, then I would. He laughed and went on his way.
I look forward to his return.
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Bill,
You said, “What you’re espousing is called postmodernism–the idea that no one can know the truth for sure. That isn’t a biblical worldview, and it’s just more evidence that you really don’t believe the Bible.”
Not so. What I am making very clear is that no one can judge what truth others might have. Do I think you have access to the truth? Yes I do, but I think that at present, under the current circumstances of humanity there is no-one group that has exclusive access to the entire truth, (not even Christians).
You must be having difficulty understanding my strait forward approach with logic and are looking for alternative statements imbedded in my words. You may keep looking but you will find none. I am stating things just as they are and how I see them. So please do not continue to put words in my mouth and assume that I am stating things that I did not say.
You say you have, “ illustrated over and over that you don’t have the Jesus of the Bible, but your defense isn’t based on fact.”
You have illustrated nothing about what “Jesus is in the Bible” and what you think the Jesus that I “have” is. At least not where I have seen. You say my stance is not based in fact however what you are looking for is fact to prove a negative, which cannot be done. You have done nothing to challenge me but spread random, vague, generalized statements like, “Your Jesus is not the true Jesus…” and pass judgment on others by saying they are going to hell. There is no fact in this to argue over so I asked how you could know what Jesus I “have?” So far, no factual answers. I then perused the logical stance that without the authority to judge others how can you make these judgments you have made? I do know that there is Truth this alone should tell you again you are wrong in your assumptions about others. I do not prescribe to your theories of “postmodernism.”
You state: “It’s okay to believe things, and even say others are wrong. You think you’re going to be the god of your own universe or whatever, and that I’m wrong”
Again, you put words & statements to people who have never made them. I have asked you elsewhere but we are at this again. When have I ever made a statement like the one you associated to me: “…god of your own universe, or whatever…” You are wrong about what others “have,” what others believe. I am not saying that you don’t have truth. I am observing that you take the little part of the truth you “have” and try to discredit the truth others “have.” My judgments are not on you but your actions that I have seen on these Blogs.
Also you just handed over to Z. the ammunition he needed to solidify his case of the gospel being Terrorizing Propaganda.
-D
Bill- “You are living proof that the Bible is true.”
Following the exact same logic, you are living proof the Book of Mormon is true.
2 Nephi 29:3-10
“many of the Gentiles shall say: A Bible! A Bible! We have got a Bible, and there cannot be any more Bible. But thus saith the Lord God: O fools, they shall have a Bible; and it shall proceed forth from the Jews, mine ancient covenant people…Thou fool, that shall say: A Bible, we have got a Bible, and we need no more Bible. Have ye obtained a Bible save it were by the Jews? Know ye not that there are more nations than one? Know ye not that I, the Lord your God, have created all men, and that I remember those who are upon the isles of the sea; and that I rule in the heavens above and in the earth beneath; and I bring forth my word unto the children of men, yea, even upon all the nations of the earth? Wherefore murmur ye, because that ye shall receive more of my word? Know ye not that the testimony of two nations is a witness unto you that I am God, that I remember one nation like unto another? Wherefore, I speak the same words unto one nation like unto another. And when the two nations shall run together the testimony of the two nations shall run together also…Wherefore, because that ye have a Bible ye need not suppose that it contains all my words; neither need ye suppose that I have not caused more to be written.”
See? It is written down, so it must be true. You are living proof that the Book of Mormon is true because it is WRITTEN DOWN.
See how ridiculous and absurd you sound?
Zelph,
Please don’t take offence because I know you were slightly sarcastic in your last post but I think you got something there. It makes perfict sence that Bill could just have proven the Book of Mormon to be true, just as he thinks you are proof of the Bible’s validity.
In the end we can truly see that the validity of scripture is based on the faith one puts into it, and how they live their lives based on the scriptures they follow. There is no overpowering fact that can convince us all the validity of any scripture unless it is found by ourselves. To clairify, we find the truth in the scriptures that we use to convince ourselves of its truthfulness.
-D
Ditchu- I agree with you and that is the point. Validity is based on your personal faith. The point of my post is to demonstrate that to say that it is ‘proof’ the Bible is true because not everyone believes in it is completely flawed logic. The same logic proves the Book of Mormon. That is fine if you believe the Bible is the perfect word of God, or in the BoM, but find better ‘proof’ because to assert of its truthfulness because not everyone believes it is just silly.
I could write a paper and say it is from God that says to give me all your money. Then, if you don’t believe that this paper I have is actually from God, I can say “See? That is PROOF it is from God, because it says right here in the third paragraph that there will be those that reject this paper as being from God”
I agree with you that what it comes down to is your own personal faith.
Zelph,
Precisely!
Bill?
Are you there?
Any responce????
The Latter-Day Saints don’t deserve your loathing. I have a large section of LDS family, both active and Jack-Mormons, and frankly, your spiteful words about them are unChristian as all get out. The LDS are wonderful people who follow their faith at all costs, and they get enough crap from the world not to need it from their brothers and sisters in Christ.
Sara, thanks for commenting on my blog.
I do not believe the LDS faith is a Christian faith, so I must do what I can to stop them from marching into Hell. If I believe they are headed to Hell, I would be a cruel monster not to warn them. You are right, relative to others the Mormons tend to be very kind people – all the more reason to want to see them in Heaven.
I repeat: until you actually answer the questions I have raised on Derek’s blog, I will not respond to you. Do not blow me off here.
Justin,
What makes you think they are not Christian? They beleive in the Bible, same as Christians. They Follow Jesus Christ same as Christians. If you use the “it’s not the same Jesus” thing I would argue that you might not follow the same Jesus. The LDS Jesus is the same one found in the New Testament in the Bible. They even named their church after him because the LDS beleive Jesus Christ is ultimatly at the head of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints.
I think your issue is that what you know of the LDS seems contrary to your view of your Faith.
-D
Actually, they believe the Bible has been mistranslated, they follow their church’s doctrines, and they are contridictory to Christian essential doctrines. See http://www.carm.org/lds/lds_christian.htm
Justin,
See LINK REMOVED for what the LDS beleive.
It amazes me how many Baptist would take a third party’s input before looking into the source.
Here is an open question for you Justin:
What is a Christian?
-D
ditchu, if you continue to break the commenting rules, you will be banned from commenting on this blog.
Secondly, I have been to the site you mentioned obviously as I mentioned it in another post that you have commented on.
Justin,
I understand why you have your rules, however you open a can of worms by utilizing a link to a website that I guess supports your slanted view. When I offered a direct connection to the source of the subject discussed, you removed the link. I can only figure you wish to discuss only your point of view without offering any alternative perspective. This is how liberty and democracy dies and dictatorships form. Limiting the access to information so that all is offered supports only what the dictator supports, removing all alternatives. I prefer to get my information from the source. On topics about the beliefs of people I seek out the people about their beliefs not seek out someone who just says something about these other people.
Let liberty Reign,
-D
I don’t stop you from giving the information you want to present – you just have to put it here. You can’t just link to it.
I followed your example here. You placed a link to a local that you are using to try to describe the beliefs of a certain group, and removed a link to that would go to that group for the things they believe. That is the censorship that I am talking about. And on top of that you are going to a third party source instead of getting the information first hand. Our legal system calls that hear-say, and it is not amicable in court as evidence.
But this is your space and you have a right to censor anything you want. (even the truth)
-D
“I do not believe the LDS faith is a Christian faith, so I must do what I can to stop them from marching into Hell”
You mean to say that your church teaches that only those that follow their doctrines will be saved and all other groups are going to hell?….gasp….No! I don’t believe it! (sarcasm)
EVERY religious group teaches that only they will be saved and everyone else will perish. Uh huh. Statements like condemning people to hell make you sound young and naive.
When one has to revert to scare tactics, it is very difficult to take them seriously.
Zelph, I am talking about essential doctrines. I am Southern Baptist, but I believe there will be Methodists and Lutherans in Heaven in well for example.
As far as Hell, I did not make the claim myself. Jesus said he is the way, the truth, and the life and that nobody comes to God but through Him in John 14:6.
Justin,
Jesus is the way the truth and the life and he is the way to Heaven! that is why “Mormons” follow him!
You can argue all you want on how “Your Jesus” is not the same as “My Jesus” but you must accept that as a member of the LDS Church I would know better than someone who is not a member that the LDS Church follows Jesus Christ. If you follow a different Jesus then you may want to check yourself before you are led astray into dark and crooked paths.
Also how do you feel about them Luthern’s having women teaching their Men and having women in the leadership of their church?
Is it your policies or your churches policies that keep women out of the leadership of your Church?
-D
Ditchu, you can say it is the same Christ if you want, but you are not truely following Him because he requires you to put your trust in salvation by grace through faith alone (Ephesians 2:8-9).
I think the issue you brought up about women in leadership is a nonessential doctrine.
Your failure to understand the difference in view point of the princible of faith brings about works is astounding to me. You have visited my Blog where I have made a more detailed explaniation of the differences of these perspectives on the basis of the Gospel.
I have said plenty on this issue, enough to lead a bull to water, but you still do not understant the other side of the coin. But I will put this to your logic again…
Say you have faith in Jesus Christ. You have plenty of time and oppertunity to act upon that Faith. Do you?
If you do act upon that faith, you produce what we are talking about as works.
If you do not act upon that faith, is that faith real?
someone put the question to the master, he ask Jesus about faith and works, wondering if one could be as you called saved by works alone. In short Jesus said no, there is nothing you can do if you lack faith, But faith without works is dead. If your faith dose not produce works even if the oppertunity presents itself, It is a false faith.
That is the subject (in a nutshell) that you just opened with your last comment.
So I ask you, If you think your Faith is sufficent to save you without producing any works by that faith, are you following Christ and his teachings?
-D
If you want to focus on only essential docturne, What do you think happens to a young boy who is 1. not baptized and 2. knows nothing about Jesus?
Justin, that is still just your own opinion and your own interpretation of the Bible, and also assumes that the Bible is correct. That is a lot of assumptions.
Zelph and Ditchu,
You both seem to be trying to hold the bible to a standard that you’d never hold any other ancient document to.
By your standard, Zelph, then we cannot EVER TRANSLATE ANYTHING into any other language because then the meaning is totally lost!
I agree, the statement about our surety of the bible given by the blog owner went a “little too far” and I’d be more inclined to state it like this:
That’s a quote from Daniel B. Wallace. A man who has devoted his life to the study of Texual Criticism. I’ve seen the documents, I’ve read some of them, I’ve studied the issue and I agree.
Ditchu, I’d like to answer your questions:
Answer: Because the bible itself says that the scripture has been “Breathed out by God himself” Why would I believe the bible? It’s my “presupposition” my starting point, my axiom.
We all have presuppositional starting points; everyone commenting on this blog has them. There are things that we don’t defend with evidence because of the fact that they are our starting point. Having said that; I think we do have good reason to believe that what we have IS representative of the originals.
Yes, in the original manuscripts, which we don’t have.
I don’t know. He didn’t mention the mechanism by which it is…but the writers of the bible said that God breathed it out through men. The apostles and Jesus himself treated the scriptures as though they were authoritative; I’m going to do the same.
I hope that everyone here understands that anytime one language is translated to another language, compromises are made. There is NO 1-to-1 correlation between languages.
But, having said that; the picture that’s being painted by Ditchu and Zelph is pretty bleak…one that leaves no room for the evidence.
It’s been stated here on this comment section that
While that’s true, it stops short of the facts.
Do you know what the “differences” are that you speak of?
Also, as I already mentioned; you seem to imply that IF we don’t have an original copy of a document from history then we CAN’T KNOW what it said with any reasonable certainty and we are lost!
Ok…that brings up two questions:
1.) Do we have ANY ORIGINAL copy of ANY ancient document from the time period in question?
Answer: No.
Then what gives you any certainty that ANYTHING you read in history is accurate?
2.) If somehow we lost the Declaration of Independence (maybe Nick Cage stole it) would we all of a sudden throw up our hands and say that we CANNOT KNOW what it said?
I don’t think you would…then don’t you see that holding the bible up to this unreasonable standard is self refuting? You can’t live your life without SOME measure of “FAITH” in certain things.
Isn’t that reasonable?
if I am correct Mormonism was started by Joe Smith way back when because AFTER THE APOSTLES DIED (supposedly) the church went haywire, and God let it be that way for over 1,000 years until a man of incredible integrity, such as Joe came along. if thats the case the Mormon shouldnt have an issue with the bible, because it’s letters were written by the apostles. Granted the church put all the books and epistles into the Bible but, why should that be of concern? Apostate or not, the church did a good enough job for Joe to steal, twist and manipulate it’s text.. It’s a case of this is what I believe, they believe their Jesus can save them, because the Book of Mormon says so, and if they work hard enough they’ll be a God.. Congrats, you’re all gonna live eternally.. but where will you spend it? Only the Bible can answer that…
Well now….
Now that all the Mormons in the audience have read that and converted….we can all go home
ditchu and Zelph…your ball…run with it.
“The apostles and Jesus himself treated the scriptures as though they were authoritative; I’m going to do the same.”
Authoritative, yes, but not absolutely error free, as Justin has contended.
(Firstly you have attributed some comments to me that I think are said by others. That aside)
“Also, as I already mentioned; you seem to imply that IF we don’t have an original copy of a document from history then we CAN’T KNOW what it said with any reasonable certainty and we are lost!”
I imply nothing more than what I have plainly stated that we cannot know without error exactly what the original said after the many transcriptions the document went through. These are hand transcriptions many of which were done by candle light not the best of situations to preserve the written word.
“1.) Do we have ANY ORIGINAL copy of ANY ancient document from the time period in question?
Answer: No.
Then what gives you any certainty that ANYTHING you read in history is accurate?
2.) If somehow we lost the Declaration of Independence (maybe Nick Cage stole it) would we all of a sudden throw up our hands and say that we CANNOT KNOW what it said?
I don’t think you would…then don’t you see that holding the bible up to this unreasonable standard is self refuting? You can’t live your life without SOME measure of “FAITH” in certain things.
Isn’t that reasonable?”
To respond to your proposed questions:
You not correct that nothing from that time period exists in its original written media.
We have several items from the time period (dawn of know writing to about 60AD).
We have Sumerian Cuneiform written in Stone tablets and brass
We have Egyptian hieroglyphs
We have Chinese Turtle shells
We have pieces of ancient libraries that have survived in part through the time period of the Christian manuscripts that make up the Bible.
What we do not have is the original manuscripts written on papyri or Leather (animal skin) Scrolls. These documents have been transcribed over and over again to preserve, as well as they could, the words of the original writings. That is what we lack for our evidence of its accuracy (which has been argued to be 100% with no question “because it was God Breathed.”
“Then what gives you any certainty that ANYTHING you read in history is accurate?”
How about the original account of the event? Having the original document is invaluable to backing up the authenticity of the report of any event.
If somehow we lost the Declaration of Independence of the United States… (one copy of it) Did you know there were many copies made originally of the US Declaration of Independence? There are still 8 in known existence today one of which is shown in the Lincoln Memorial in DC another tours the States and some of the others are in Archives. Also we have photographic representations in high detail of these originals to increase our ability to be sure of the accuracy of our understanding of the document, and further more it was written in a language many can read without translation into their native tongue, not to mention in a more resent time and thus the language used in more likely modern than the archaic Ancient Hebrew or Latin.
You are correct that we all use “SOME measure of FAITH” when dealing with our understanding of Scripture and ancient documents. But I would not put it forth that the Bible or any other writing is completely without error, especially as you mentioned if it is translated into other languages.
Now, that is reasonable, no?
Good day,
-D
ditchu,
Sorry for the confusion…I’ll go point by point in a response:
What I meant by that was that they saw scripture as “breathed out by God” they never said…”well this might be someones opinion, but…”
And what do you base this on? Your study of the actual variants themselves or your understanding of what someone else has said?
Q: What accounts for 99.5% of the variants that are there between manuscripts that are hundreds if not thousands of years apart?
Secondly, my reference to other ancient writings was to illustrate that, for whatever reason, you hold the bible to an unreasonable standard that you don’t any other ancient writing.
PS Before you answer: I agree…we don’t have complete certainty in what the original said. But does that mean we are lost?
We’ll start there with the question about what the main variant is.
Robert
First off so I am fully understanding you, please indicate the quoat you used and where it appears on this page other than in comment 128 ans succesive comments: ”well this might be someones opinion, but…”
I did not find it.
Now getting to your questions:
Main Variant? What is the main variant you are talking about?
My information on the transcription from one scroll to another comes from a reloable source: as a youth my pastor related to me some of his seminary studies. Amoung this information it detailed how the fist 5 books of the old testimant were preserved from the originals. and thusly the process was also continued for several hundred years after Christ’s resurection.
“Q: What accounts for 99.5% of the variants that are there between manuscripts that are hundreds if not thousands of years apart?”
I am sure you know this trivia and are wanting very much to lay it on us all. So why wait – educate.
My only guess (well two) could be coruption of man (for man is not yet in his perfect state) or poor eyesight.
“Secondly, my reference to other ancient writings was to illustrate that, for whatever reason, you hold the bible to an unreasonable standard that you don’t any other ancient writing.”
This is a fully untrue statment. I do not hold the Bible or any manuscript contained there in to more scrutiny than anything else, in fact I have faith that it is true and that it has authoritive content. I also see reasoning that being left to man (in our natural state – imperfect) to maintain/tend to it, biblical scripture is not inerrant, but our coruption by simple reason has creept into it’s pages, be it small twist of meaning or spelling errors, or even understanding of some portion withheld from us at this time. It is unreasonable to conclude that it is fully without error. Yet as you have stated we have faith in its Authorty as the word of God, and I can only assume this is what is ment by scripture being “God Breathed.”
“PS Before you answer: I agree…we don’t have complete certainty in what the original said. But does that mean we are lost?”
No, why would we be lost without certinty in the scripture?
Now your turn to answer my question (based on your best opinion) :
Would we be more “Lost” if we understood what God intended us to get from scripture even if it has flaws and errors throughout, or if the Writen word was exact and error free, shall I say fully inerrant, yet we still misunderstand the core meaning?
The way you and Justin and a few others have argued the ideal of having inerrant scriptures makes me wonder if your opinion on the Bible, does it contain some supreme power, some spiritual essance, something more than a collection of words?
Do you really understnad the Book, or are you still relying on the words to tell you what is right? In other words how much do you think about it, and how much do you apply it to your life?
Please, know that I am in no way attacking you or Scripture, I often forget how easy it is to mistake one’s tone in the writen word. The questions are real and the intent is to cause thinking and in part dialogue. I do think your heart is in the right place as you have done a good job defending the Bible, as Justin also has done well for. Please note that I do believe in the Bible but also allow question as to the possibility that there may exist errors in the text.
God bless,
-D